It's not really a matter of being a smart developer. In reality, most games lose their appeal after a few months of release anyway (often sooner). So attempting to be forward compatible is probably not worth the effort 90% of the time since a game developed for OUYA 1 will probably not be something most consumers are looking for on OUYA 2. PC games have to do this because of how diverse the graphics hardware is. Consoles have the benefit of locked hardware. OUYA is closer to Apple than Android in that regard, so your observation there is probably a valid one.
And funny you should mention Apple. Apple will be an interesting company to watch next month when they unveil iPad 5/iPad Mini 2. They can probably get away with releasing a product 5 months after their predecessor once because they're Apple. But I don't think it's something every company should try.
What matters most is how well the consumers will embrace this sort of planned obsolescence for OUYA. They may be okay with this behavior from Apple if they're buying a phone or tablet because they're Apple and because that audience is different. But is it dangerous to assume the demographic OUYA's trying to reach thinks like an Apple consumer? I think it is.
What happens to the OUYA sales when they announce the OUYA 2? Cannibalization? Most assuredly if the device is backward compatible. Without a deep discount, it will probably result in a big drop in hardware sales between the announcement and release.
I think it's a two edged sword, on the one hand I'd love for there to be this single piece of hardware that never changes - THAT is an ideal world, no worries ever about who has what system or what it can do. That's the simplest and most obvious path and that's why people are upset when this obvious idea is threatened. I mean, who wants to have to start thinking about how their game is going to work on older hardware. For example developing for iOs for a long time has been a pain trying to support 3GS and iPad1 which are way less powerful than more recent versions. It adds extra compromises, puts limitations on things, etc.. more difficult to deal with things like multiple resolutions and hardware optimizations and how much memory is available and what the GPU can do etc. So fragmenting it into multiple pieces of hardware under the same brand does add headaches. BUT... at the same time, this is just the way things go... without upgrades the hardware will stay inferior after a short time and newcomers will surpass it. So it has to stay fresh somehow. And given that Tegra4 for example is a LOT faster than Tegra3 by several times, who wouldn't want that kind of an upgrade?
I don't however see it being totally easy to just downgrade a game to work on Tegra 3 when ideally it's at its best on Tegra 4 - what if there is half as much ram, 1/4 the fill rate, shaders that don't run, not enough triangles, etc.. those are pretty significant things to have to work around. It's just a `show me 10,000 extra particles` switch. I think somehow there might have to be a filter in the store or something to say `only show games that can run on my device` or `don't show games that downgrade to earlier devices`, otherwise it's going to have to be up to developers to find some way to greatly decrease the game scope/performance/features etc.
@imaginaryhuman Downgrading is the wrong direction. If you're supporting multiple hardware revisions it's *much* easier to go the other way. When I was doing iOS development the 3GS was the baseline for performance.
@imaginaryhuman Downgrading is the wrong direction. If you're supporting multiple hardware revisions it's *much* easier to go the other way. When I was doing iOS development the 3GS was the baseline for performance.
Agreed! Develop for the worst and then push the limits for the best. That saves SO much time!
By the way, I see the term "planned obsolescence" being mentioned and I think it's wrong to say that in this context. Nothing's becoming obsolete here, previous versions will still be perfectly usable for several generations. If anything this is "planned upgrades", but definitely not "planned obsolescence" like the chips that make printers fail after a certain amount of time.
I think it's a two edged sword, on the one hand I'd love for there to be this single piece of hardware that never changes - THAT is an ideal world, no worries ever about who has what system or what it can do. That's the simplest and most obvious path and that's why people are upset when this obvious idea is threatened. I mean, who wants to have to start thinking about how their game is going to work on older hardware. For example developing for iOs for a long time has been a pain trying to support 3GS and iPad1 which are way less powerful than more recent versions. It adds extra compromises, puts limitations on things, etc.. more difficult to deal with things like multiple resolutions and hardware optimizations and how much memory is available and what the GPU can do etc. So fragmenting it into multiple pieces of hardware under the same brand does add headaches. BUT... at the same time, this is just the way things go... without upgrades the hardware will stay inferior after a short time and newcomers will surpass it. So it has to stay fresh somehow. And given that Tegra4 for example is a LOT faster than Tegra3 by several times, who wouldn't want that kind of an upgrade?
I don't however see it being totally easy to just downgrade a game to work on Tegra 3 when ideally it's at its best on Tegra 4 - what if there is half as much ram, 1/4 the fill rate, shaders that don't run, not enough triangles, etc.. those are pretty significant things to have to work around. It's just a `show me 10,000 extra particles` switch. I think somehow there might have to be a filter in the store or something to say `only show games that can run on my device` or `don't show games that downgrade to earlier devices`, otherwise it's going to have to be up to developers to find some way to greatly decrease the game scope/performance/features etc.
From a development standpoint, I don't think it's going to be a huge technical hurdle. Many developers here are already dealing with something similar since they've ported their games from Android mobile/tablet devices. And again, I think a few developers over-estimate the demand for their games across platform generations. There are few games with a life of popularity THAT long. And if a developer is burdened with that popularity, they'll find a way to get the game on the new version in one way or another. Even if they have to fork the build and re-release it. But if it's popular and the platform is backward compatible, why even bother? It's probably going to sell either way. OUYA's really not sold based on the high-end graphic experience, and it probably never will be. And that's okay! We're all here developing because there's demand for great games, even if they don't compete on a graphical scale to a high end PC.
The issue around having YEARLY upgrades that are backward compatible is gauging the consumer's willingness and desire to actually upgrade the hardware frequently. Think about what motivated someone to move from the PS2 to the PS3. It's not the ability to play PS2 titles on PS3 with better graphics. It's what software differentiates the platform versions.
From an indie developer's standpoint, is it a high risk maneuver to make a game exclusive to OUYA 2 if a majority of the user base is still on OUYA? At that point, does it become like the Commodore 128? (anyone remember that?). Hardly anyone ever used "128 mode". It was usually booted up into Commodore 64 mode because that's where all the software was.
Some may point to Apple and claim it works for them, but those are different products from a company that has managed to gain a much different image and perception of their products than any other company can currently claim.
In my opinion, the annual hardware life cycle strategy shouldn't have been announced. They should concentrate on one generation at a time and not set the expectation or imply that the current device will be unsupported in a year (or less... that support duration decreases daily). How can that NOT affect a consumer's decision to buy a device?
Nothing stops OUYA from silently working on a Tegra 4 or even 5 model, and announcing it when they start to see sales decline on the current generation.
The key is probably to release it not far behind the announcement like Apple does with their hardware and discontinue the current version as soon as that happens. In that world, you never have to wait very long between the announcement and having it in your hands, and the fragmentation isn't a long term issue.
Expect 2 models running along side each, one for $99 and one for $199. This is a logical model that the other system makers are working on as well. This whining does not bode well for the Ouya.
@imaginaryhuman Downgrading is the wrong direction. If you're supporting multiple hardware revisions it's *much* easier to go the other way. When I was doing iOS development the 3GS was the baseline for performance.
That's my biggest fear. Developers making little use of the newer devices' capabilities, discouraging players from buying the newer ones at all.
Expect 2 models running along side each, one for $99 and one for $199. This is a logical model that the other system makers are working on as well. This whining does not bode well for the Ouya.
No it's really not the same model. PS2 and PS3 did this to some effect, but there was very limited backward compatibility (until it was dismissed entirely). Xbox 720 and PS4 have been rumored to not be backward compatible at all. WiiU is backward compatible with the Wii, but the sales indicate that the subtle upgrade to HD and tablet is not worth it in the minds of the consumers.
Some may even say this isn't whining, and maybe a legitimate concern. History and current examples are case studies why not being concerned about it may bode even worse for OUYA.
I wouldn't buy an OUYA, even with a Tegra 4, for $199. And I'm a huge champion of the system. Nintendo got away with it a few years ago with the Wii because of the novelty of the motion controls. OUYA 2 would need a lot more than a next gen Tegra to justify that price point, let alone be successful.
@imaginaryhuman Downgrading is the wrong direction. If you're supporting multiple hardware revisions it's *much* easier to go the other way. When I was doing iOS development the 3GS was the baseline for performance.
Agreed! Develop for the worst and then push the limits for the best. That saves SO much time!
By the way, I see the term "planned obsolescence" being mentioned and I think it's wrong to say that in this context. Nothing's becoming obsolete here, previous versions will still be perfectly usable for several generations. If anything this is "planned upgrades", but definitely not "planned obsolescence" like the chips that make printers fail after a certain amount of time.
Obsolescence isn't engineered failure or even a bad thing. It's the very nature of why upgrades exist. Every company with a road map plans to retire products in favor of new and improved ones. Tegra-3 based OUYAs will eventually not be supported when Tegra-4 OUYAs release. Then it becomes exactly like the printer chips because all chips fail eventually, especially over-clocked cheap system-on-a-chip components. However, does it really matter what it's called when the consumer is expected to re-pay for the same system with a subtle upgrade on a yearly basis? I'm pretty sure the reactions will be the same whether it's called an upgrade or planned obsolescence. :)
But maybe your right. A better term for this is probably the Osborne effect. Most recently illustrated in the Windows Phone eco system when Microsoft announced Windows Phone 8.
I'm really hoping the big boss lady meant backwards compatibility with the hardware and not software meaning ouya 2 can play ouya 1 games so if users came on the ouya bandwagon during the next iteration, they can always go back and check out what they missed which is the whole point behind backwards compatibility with hardware. software is a hole different mater.
as far as price goes, I think the majority of ouya's appeal spans from its cheap introductory price point. Ouya has the capacity to be the only entry level HD gaming console on the market. Not every one wants a full blow hardcore gaming experience, that's why their called casual gamers, and if done right ouya can offer that better than the other 3 and their offerings.
as far as upgrading as long as the price is right and i'm sure everyone will agree to this. if they offered a new unit with tegra 4 tomorrow for $199, I wouldn't buy it. even if they had a tegra 5 in it still would not buy it. At those price points my train of thinking becomes, "If I were to add another $50 - $100 bucks I could get".. you see where this is going.
The flip side to all this is that the people pre-ordering from Amazon or Best Buy or whatever probably don't read engadget.
There probably aren't too many gamers and tech geeks left sitting on the fence, and a good slew of launch titles might be enough to win back some of those by retail in June
On Feb 20th, Sony are expected to announce PS4, and anything else trying to get press / PR in the days and even weeks afterwards is going to starve.
I'm almost wondering whether OUYA are taking the "Any PR is good PR" route at the moment, to capitalise on the Amazon.com front page (which won't last forever), and get in before the big PS4 début
I'm not sure what that translates to in terms of numbers, but for a time they were above Halo 4, Deadspace 3, and BLOPS 2.
Yep. At this point, they have officially shaken the "it will be just like Phantom" argument, since they've already managed to do what Phantom could not, and to a very impressive degree I might add.
You didn't remember the plot of the Doctor Who movie because there was none; Just a bunch of plot holes strung together.
My only concern is that if this was announced anywhere to developers/backers before going to the press as a courtesy heads up? I dont remember seeing a backer updates about this.
Unfortunately I get the feeling that as soon as OUYA got some popularity (and deal with bigger publishers) the backers "need to know" power decreased. Oh well, nothing terribly surprising here.
But actually this might be a good idea anyway. We still get the advantage of having started early. And at 100/year it would still be cheaper than an iOS device in any case,
They've said in the past that they were planning to release other consoles in the future, when the time was right. But no, that statement was the first we've heard of "every year".
They've said in the past that they were planning to release other consoles in the future, when the time was right. But no, that statement was the first we've heard of "every year".
I think people are making way too much fuss over the "yearly update" announcement. It does let customers know that there is is no imminent upgrade to Tegra 4 in the works but there will be one later. An updated OUYA 2 (console only) should cost about as much as most people pay for a single top tier game.
Yes indeed, way too much fuss over the announcement.
Arcticdog, what I said was just due to the fact that the Tegra 4 is not even officially released and there is no way in hades they could sell a unit with it in 1 year for $99. It would have to sell for quite a bit more and thus a 2-tier side by side model would be logical. It would not sell as well and only developers and people that must have the extra speed would buy it. But that also means Ouya could have a higher profit margin to make up the difference in sales. A proper replacement for the standard $99 Ouya I wouldn't expect for 2 years and that gives everyone a guaranteed 2-year hardware life cycle. In 2 years both could be replaced by a $99 Tegra 4 model and a more expensive Tegra 5 model.
My reference to the next gen consoles using a similar model comes from reading that many in the industry believe that 2 years after they are introduced there will be faster premium models selling along side the standard models.
The $99 models are really all I'm interested in as well.
Also it's not like anything important will change - it will still be ARMv7, OpenGL ES2.0, Android device, even if you use NEON extension, ARM assembler etc. your game will work without any problems.
I don't want to sound too smart :) but unless OUYA mk1 is successful there won't be version 2 or 3...
Other console developers would never reveal their next product (thinking is that it would take the focus of the product they are trying to sell now) but OUYA is not an usual console developer so they probably know what they are doing...
Here's an idea... when the Ouya 2 comes out... make it so you can buy the new hardware box by itself for like $50 without having to buy new controllers... that would make it much more attractive to existing customers as an upgrade path, because most likely the controllers aren't going to change much (except maybe improvements to the touch screen?).
Here's an idea... when the Ouya 2 comes out... make it so you can buy the new hardware box by itself for like $50 without having to buy new controllers... that would make it much more attractive to existing customers as an upgrade path, because most likely the controllers aren't going to change much (except maybe improvements to the touch screen?).
I think most people are already assuming it will be possible to save by buying without a controller. Looks like there are plenty of people who would be willing to crack open the box and replace the board if it'd save them an extra few dollars or means they can keep their limited edition cases
I don't want to sound too smart :) but unless OUYA mk1 is successful there won't be version 2 or 3...
Other console developers would never reveal their next product (thinking is that it would take the focus of the product they are trying to sell now) but OUYA is not an usual console developer so they probably know what they are doing...
:) That's actually a pretty smart thing to say. And kind of my point all along. Concentrate on what's going on now. If OUYA 1's are still selling a year from now, there's really no point to an OUYA 2. If Sony and Microsoft could get away with it, we'd still be using the 360 and PS3 for a few more years without any sort of successor. It makes good business sense if the market allows it.
And yes.. while they are a different kind of console, there are plenty of case studies out there in computing history to support that if you announce successors to your product (and worse, before your product is even released), it can do a tremendous amount of damage to the sales of your current iteration, and can/has lead to complete failure of the business.
Some of us have invested in the success of OUYA beyond $99. So if we feel a little concerned about decisions that under other historical circumstances have actually led to untimely demise, it IS something to worry about or at least view as noteworthy. :)
What some of us misunderstand is that the reason for us to be so uppity about this is because we care, and want to see this thing succeed otherwise this would be too much energy spent towards this. Being a gamer since I was 5 years old, I've seen a few companies made decisions that didn't bode well for them. Not saying being a gamer and running a business is the same thing, but a business targeting us gamers is a different thing, so we are all in the same boat here. At one point companies like Nintendo and Sony were considered stuck up non-gamer friendly, force feeding us what they want. That isn't the case now is it :). Like they say take it from the horses mouth.
If Ouya 1's are still selling a year from now, there is EVERY point to upgrading the hardware to make it even better so it keeps selling even more. iPhone doesn't stop being upgraded just because it's successful.
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However, does it really matter what it's called when the consumer is expected to re-pay for the same system with a subtle upgrade on a yearly basis? I'm pretty sure the reactions will be the same whether it's called an upgrade or planned obsolescence. :)
I'm really hoping the big boss lady meant backwards compatibility with the hardware and not software meaning ouya 2 can play ouya 1 games so if users came on the ouya bandwagon during the next iteration, they can always go back and check out what they missed which is the whole point behind backwards compatibility with hardware. software is a hole different mater.
as far as price goes, I think the majority of ouya's appeal spans from its cheap introductory price point. Ouya has the capacity to be the only entry level HD gaming console on the market. Not every one wants a full blow hardcore gaming experience, that's why their called casual gamers, and if done right ouya can offer that better than the other 3 and their offerings.
as far as upgrading as long as the price is right and i'm sure everyone will agree to this. if they offered a new unit with tegra 4 tomorrow for $199, I wouldn't buy it. even if they had a tegra 5 in it still would not buy it. At those price points my train of thinking becomes, "If I were to add another $50 - $100 bucks I could get".. you see where this is going.
There probably aren't too many gamers and tech geeks left sitting on the fence, and a good slew of launch titles might be enough to win back some of those by retail in June
On Feb 20th, Sony are expected to announce PS4, and anything else trying to get press / PR in the days and even weeks afterwards is going to starve.
I'm almost wondering whether OUYA are taking the "Any PR is good PR" route at the moment, to capitalise on the Amazon.com front page (which won't last forever), and get in before the big PS4 début
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This flies in the face of of developers & consumers!!!
Don't call it a console, because it wont have a "console library".
Call it a TV gaming toy.
Three years minimum!
Ouya should research what a console is and what a disposable toy is.
Unfortunately I get the feeling that as soon as OUYA got some popularity (and deal with bigger publishers) the backers "need to know" power decreased. Oh well, nothing terribly surprising here.
But actually this might be a good idea anyway. We still get the advantage of having started early. And at 100/year it would still be cheaper than an iOS device in any case,
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Also there is the OUYA Euro Devkit Giveaway, that you can try your luck on
Otherwise, it's ebay I think
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