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MAME

MommysBestGamesMommysBestGames Posts: 56Member
in Games
Anyone working on getting MAME onto Ouya? Ouya Team are you looking into this?

I think while it will create lots of competition, it would be a great push for a lot of gamers out there when deciding whether or not to purchase the Ouya in the first place. Then said gamers have the console already when contemporary devs release something new.

-Nathan, MBG Twitter
Check out Pig Eat Ball on Facebook!

Comments

  • DreamwriterDreamwriter Posts: 768Member
    We haven't heard yet whether emulators will even be allowed in the OUYA store.
  • MommysBestGamesMommysBestGames Posts: 56Member
    Dreamwriter said:
    We haven't heard yet whether emulators will even be allowed in the OUYA store.
    Fair enough then. In this case I think it will help.

    -Nathan, MBG Twitter
    Check out Pig Eat Ball on Facebook!
  • arcticdogarcticdog Posts: 235Member
    I imagine there are some publishers out there that might view OUYA as a great platform to release their back catalog via emulation (as Nintendo does with their virtual console).

    So releasing non-official emulation (even without the ROMs) would possibly be undermining in that regard.

    I expect the store won't allow it for that reason alone.

    However, a rooted device is probably going to be fair game.
  • MommysBestGamesMommysBestGames Posts: 56Member
    arcticdog said:
    However, a rooted device is probably going to be fair game.
    True.
    -Nathan, MBG Twitter
    Check out Pig Eat Ball on Facebook!
  • VicariousEntVicariousEnt Posts: 63Member
    I don't see it being any different then Google's Play store, there are lots of emulators you can purchase there.
  • DreamwriterDreamwriter Posts: 768Member
    The difference is what arctic dog mentioned: OUYA wants companies like Capcom, Konami, EA, Activision to develop for the OUYA.  Those companies tend to look down on companies that actively promote the piracy of their franchises - while emulation is legal, it's 99.9999% of the time used for piracy, and directly affects sales of retro game collections.
  • VicariousEntVicariousEnt Posts: 63Member
    All of those companies except Capcom currently sell games on the Play store.
  • DreamwriterDreamwriter Posts: 768Member
    Google isn't actively promoting the emulators, they just allow all types of software.  But OUYA have specifically stated that the OUYA will be a walled garden, where they specifically approve of everything that goes into the store.
  • arcticdogarcticdog Posts: 235Member
    edited February 2013
    VicariousEnt said:
    All of those companies except Capcom currently sell games on the Play store.
    Those companies are very small fish in that very big pond.  

    Google Play has a much wider end user reach and adoption than OUYA will have for awhile.  Until OUYA's store boasts the same kind of adoption, they're probably going to have to cultivate an environment that's respectful to companies with back catalogs that might be well suited for sale here.

    OUYA has the right to make that policy if they were to decide it might sway certain developers from developing for the platform.  And I wouldn't blame them one bit if they did that.  Doesn't mean they will. They may decide to take the stance Google Play has:  An emulator itself isn't a violation of copyright.  But they'll have to weigh the relationship risks involved with a decision like that.  Is it worth closing the doors on companies that have a back catalog and an offensive stance against emulation by allowing it here?

    Especially since an emulator is probably not going to generate as much revenue as official releases would... 


    Post edited by arcticdog on
  • nitrofuranonitrofurano Posts: 17Member
    edited April 2013
    Dreamwriter said:
    The difference is what arctic dog mentioned: OUYA wants companies like Capcom, Konami, EA, Activision to develop for the OUYA.  Those companies tend to look down on companies that actively promote the piracy of their franchises - while emulation is legal, it's 99.9999% of the time used for piracy, and directly affects sales of retro game collections.
    i think MAME is not about unauthorized use of licensed content ( i think the world "piracy" is to be avoided - http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/words-to-avoid.html#Piracy ) - see that Jim Bagley released his "PacManicMinerMan" running on PacMan arcade hardware, and can run perfectly on MAME ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xF1Ne9qBmSo ) , and it is nothing about "piracy" - and see also that there are tools like Boriel's ZXBasic-Compiler that can be adapted to compile stuff to arcade machine hardware - and as more people will develop content for this old hardware (and this is happening on 8bit computers, like MSXDEV contest for MSX, CSSCGC for ZX-Spectrum, etc.), the same can perfectly happen on arcade machines emulated on MAME
    Post edited by nitrofurano on
  • nitrofuranonitrofurano Posts: 17Member
    edited April 2013
    and about emulations, see that there are very interesting initiatives of groups of people developing new games for 8bit and 16bit computers and consoles: http://www.mojontwins.com (their games have software-libre GPL licensing, really awesome!) - http://www.retroworks.es (they release sources as well) - http://www.relevovideogames.com/videogames/ - so, everyone, this shows a bit how offensive can be relating emulation and retro-development with "piracy"
    Post edited by nitrofurano on
  • DreamwriterDreamwriter Posts: 768Member
    I stand by my statement that "while emulation is legal, it's 99.9999% of the time used for piracy, and directly affects sales of retro game collections.".  Yes, that 0.00001% will use emulators to play the super rare homebrew game or to play roms they themselves copied off their own cartridge, the rest of the time they are going to be used for piracy, straight and simple.
  • nitrofuranonitrofurano Posts: 17Member
    @Dreamwriter , and what if the new homebrew "retrocoded" games has quality, such as from MojonTwins, and they got as far or more popular than these historic ones? still you keep this 99.9999% estimation you told? i really doubt it, and also as being part of the retro-development community (even not being the most active or among the best ones there), this statement may sound really offensive to us... :S - it is like saying that loving 8bit machines and loving still developing for that (and releasing our sources in software-libre licensing like GPL) is the same of encouraging unauthorized use of commercial games (i really hate using the term "piracy" for that - piracy means stealing, kidnapping and killing people on the seas, nothing more or else than that)
  • DreamwriterDreamwriter Posts: 768Member
    edited April 2013

    Go to *ANY* thread on any website about emulation coming to the OUYA, or watch any videos of people showing off emulation on the OUYA, or even threads about emulation in general, and you'll see people talking about playing Mario, Zelda, Sonic, Street Fighter 2, Earthbound, Megaman, or whatever.  You won't find a single person talking about playing homebrew.  For most people, they'll load up a homebrew game in an emulator once or twice as a curiosity ("D-Pad Hero, awesome, gotta try that!"), but that won't be why they downloaded the emulator.  emuYA will help this a bit because of how it comes with homebrew games and even a service which sells them, but most people aren't going to be downloading it for its homebrew, that'll just be a fun thing they discover after the fact.

    This is where I get the 99.9999% estimation - emulation was created to be able to play console (and later arcade) games on a computer, and that's still its main purpose.  And almost nobody has cart burner hardware, so almost all of those people are pirating roms off the internet, something that at least one of the emulators on OUYA directly supports through its own menus.

    And anyways, my original point in this thread wasn't anything about the reality of emulation, but how the big game developers will view it.  And the execs at those companies will view OUYA officially supporting emulation on their console as a threat, as OUYA supporting piracy of their games.

    Post edited by Dreamwriter on
  • FloppyFloppy Posts: 132Member
    I'd be a bit   -against- porting emulators on Ouya  because for developpers , it's kind of harder
    to compete with emulated games ( 100% free , better graphics , etc etc .. )

    If somebody would make a shootemup, nobody would buy it because gradius or r-type would be available for free, same for rpgs : (

    totally agreed: legal emulation is a very fun and contradictory pairing of words 


    > great article on Ouya's current processor : http://www.ouyaly.com/?p=340

    > Anti piracy measures are needed and it doesn't haves to interfer with the concept of open console
    exemples of  fairly safe platforms: WiiWare , PSvita http://in.answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20130220012123AAxLTVg 
  • arcticdogarcticdog Posts: 235Member
    nitrofurano said:
    and about emulations, see that there are very interesting initiatives of groups of people developing new games for 8bit and 16bit computers and consoles: http://www.mojontwins.com (their games have software-libre GPL licensing, really awesome!) - http://www.retroworks.es (they release sources as well) - http://www.relevovideogames.com/videogames/ - so, everyone, this shows a bit how 
    offensive can be relating emulation and retro-development with "piracy"
    At the risk of offending you further (for the record, that's not going to be the intent)... 

    Given the resurgent demand for 8 and 16-bit nostalgia games on the PC and consoles today, I guess I'm not sure I see homebrew on emulators as a selling point for emulation.  I can understand the desire to do it just for the learning experience/heck of it, and possibly sharing it with others who have a common interest in obsolete/obscure hardware.

    But if there's truly a desire to share content beyond that very limited audience, why aren't they simply porting the game to a new platform like everyone else?  Surely that port would be just another aspect of the challenge, right?

    Personally, I'd be very wary of using home brew as a trojan horse to justify a vehicle for something possibly (and often) more malicious.  If the extra work on porting wasn't desired, surely there's got to be a way to package the emulation and homebrew(s) in such a way where it's a stand alone binary, or part of a bundle.  That way, the home brew gets to share their legitimate games while not providing a means of abuses to copyright that are common to emulation.

  • nitrofuranonitrofurano Posts: 17Member
    @articdog new homebrew games for old hardware are justified for a lot of reasons:
    1- study the machine;
    2- believing that the machine is capable for far more and different that the games officially released for them;
    3- their limitations inspires a lot in both aesthetic and technical viewpoint, and probably there is no reason to code a 256mb game that could take only 256kb, for doing exactly the same;
    4- these games, when released with GPL-like licensing, like those from Mojon Twins, Retroworks, and etc., could be released on software-libre-based Linux repositories like from Debian, without any kind of problem (and people could do a simple "apt-get install" for installing them, very safely ), and these games can be a reference for games officially developed for these emulators - and if these games can caught more attention than the "classic" ones, that myth about emulation encouraging "piracy" is much more easily "destroyed" and forgotten, for the sake of the retro-development amazing enthusiasm and passion (it is really amazing coding for these hardware, really indeed, i really wanted to encourage everyone to try, it's an unique amazing experience!)

    and i really believe that there are far more reasons to justify it, i just cited some that i could remember! :) 

    btw, just because of this situation of mistaking emulation with "piracy", i created this Google+ community, only about creating new indie games for MAME, and also (perhaps) trying them on real hardware : https://plus.google.com/communities/109319692941477342773 
  • nitrofuranonitrofurano Posts: 17Member
    and about audience, i really don't believe that the audience of games from Mojon Twins, for example, is that small - their games are getting really popular - and Relevo Games (specially Jon Cortazar (a.k.a. "Viejo Archivero"), from there) were hired to develop games for 8bit machines instead of new ones - so, the audience for retrodeveloped games is not that null or small.
  • arcticdogarcticdog Posts: 235Member
    The reasons you gave are valid for home brew.  But as I said, I'm not sure those are compelling selling points for emulation (at least on OUYA or in OUYA's store).  

    For the record, I have nothing against emulation personally, but when a business is trying to make money off of a store and attract publishers, it's an interesting decision to allow distribution of sub-platforms that potentially alienates those publishers when the sub-platform is routinely used to illegally distribute their copyrighted software.

    I acknowledge that you run in a circle of usage that doesn't use emulation in this manner, but your honorable usage of emulation is more of the exception than the rule.  It has a reputation for piracy for a reason.  And the sheer volume of that compared to legit homebrew usage is going to be a VERY difficult thing to overcome.  I'm sure you've discovered this on your own.

    Honestly, I think the best implementation of emulation in the store would be better as a component of the OS itself (assuming MAME would allow such a thing.. I'm not fully familiar with their available licensing models. But if it's GNU, that license probably isn't compatible with the OUYA Android fork). But say it was feasible... it would be an interesting idea to make emulation a virtual machine component rather than a stand-alone player that you load ROMs into.

    Then, the development resources could be extended to allow launch of homebrew ROMs into this MAME component from a standard distribution package.  That way, homebrew developers could distribute and sell their games as easily as those using Unity or some other game development method.  And it would enable emulation on the device in a less stigmatized way because these games would be submitted for content review like every other game.

    If Sega or some other company wanted to leverage such a component to sell official distributions of their back catalog binaries, it would be a quick way to do that as well.  It might be a real easy sell at that point to get those publishers on board with OUYA.

    As I said before, if the emulated homebrew ROM could be packaged with MAME in a way that respected the license of MAME and was submitted for review like the rest of the games in the store, that would solve the problem of distributing emulated home brew without enabling it as a piracy platform.

    I guess whether I disagree or not, OUYA is allowing emulators in their store currently, so my opinion is sort of moot.  At least until it bites them in some way, if not through some legal matter, perhaps by damaging a relationship with a potential developer with an emulated back catalog.  

    Yeah.. I know emulators are legal, but remember that anyone can file a lawsuit against anyone, and out-lawyer them into some sort of submission or compromise if their pockets are deep enough.  

    For example, if Nintendo wanted to sue OUYA over this, whether emulation has a legal right to exist in the store or not, in the end lawyers on either side do not work for free.  At that point, it depends who's most determined and has more financial and legal resources.  Removing emulators from the store is going to be far cheaper than fighting a crusade.
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