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CREATE accepting pre-existing games? Does that discourage game creation? (Answered, new games only)

bluecollarartbluecollarart Posts: 75Member
edited January 2013 in General Discussion
The way everything is worded for this CREATE contest is very confusing. On the one hand, they say this, which sounds pretty straight-forward:
To celebrate the release of the OUYA Developer Console, we are hosting a 10-day online game jam we're calling CREATE. What is a game jam, you ask? It's a focused get-together where teams make playable games insanely quickly. Your mind will be blown at what a game team can do in 10 days.

This fits with what the normal idea of what a game jam is. Lots of free-flowing creation, openness of ideas, etc.

But then they say other things that seem to run completely counter to that:
From January 14 to January 23, we will be accepting playable prototype submissions right here.

They could have easily said "from the 14th-23rd you can start working on your game", but instead, they just said that's when they'll start accepting submissions. It... seems odd. But it makes sense if they're expecting people to submit games they've already been working on for a long time.

They do actually directly address whether your game has to be new or not, however:
To enter, you'll need to confirm [...] that it's a new game (not already released somewhere else, or raising money on Kickstarter)

So, again, completely mixed signals. They say that it has to be a new game, but when they explain what that means, they still completely leave the door open for any pre-existing game, just so long as it has yet to be released or on Kickstarter.

Afterwards, they directly say that they don't plan to take the whole "10-day game jam" thing seriously at all and you can just start working whenever. This was 7 days before the contest officially started.
We'll publish the formal contest rules just before January 14 when CREATE officially begins (though you are welcome to start working immediately).

So, at the very least, it's fine to take 17 days to work on your entry if you're a dev that carefully read through the "GOTCHAS" section instead of just assuming "10 day game jam" means "10 day game jam". (that's not a smart remark from me, the url is http://killscreendaily.com/create/#gotchas) I feel like that's tremendously unfair to any developer that tries to actually follow the spirit of the competition and create a game in 10 days.

I know that you guys have said that you're going to more clearly explain the rules once the competition starts. But I don't really think that's the best path to take. Not when it's something so basic as "do we have to make a new game, or can we use something we've been working on for months or years?" Not when it's a contest with a massive cash prize on the line.

You need to tell people what the contest is before it starts, not after. People have been asking on twitter with no response so far. Can we get some clarity, here?
Post edited by bluecollarart on

Comments

  • AyrikAyrik Posts: 429Member
    The rules seem pretty clear to me...You can submit a game between Jan 14-23 as long as that game has never been released or raised money on Kickstarter. Don't let the name fool you, this is just another one of those game competitions like IGF, except it's OUYA specific. I think it's a great way to boost some OUYA game development and awareness.

    Personally, I hope they do this once per year, and announce the winners at E3. Also, they need community voting awards as well.
    Saga Heroes - Adventure RPG
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  • bluecollarartbluecollarart Posts: 75Member
    I think a contest like the one you describe would be great, but it very much is unclear. I just got a twitter reply from OUYA employee Jon Abrams about this https://twitter.com/JonathanAbrams/status/289590339289903105 :
    " What do you mean? We specifically specify new game only."

    Although I guess he could, again, be using "new game" to mean "unreleased game".

    I'd hate to see small-scale solo devs or teams spend 10 days working hard because they think it's a "10 day game jam", as OUYA and Killscreen said it was, when they never really had much of a chance against big pre-existing games.

    If they want to run a game competition, like IGF, as you say, I think that's fine and that it's a cool idea. But it's not clear to everyone whether that's what they're doing or not.
  • DreamwriterDreamwriter Posts: 768Member
    I totally agree with the OP, if they call it a 10-day game jam, then it should be a 10-day game jam.  It shouldn't say "though you are welcome to start working immediately" and it should very specifically rule out anything that was created before the 10 days start.
  • erferf Posts: 3Member
    Well, the worse case scenario is that you spend 10 days working hard and lose, but then you are left with a good head start on a game for release on the OUYA. That's really the point of this whole exercise.
  • bluecollarartbluecollarart Posts: 75Member
    edited January 2013
    That's a very positive & practical way to look at it, erf. I hope most developers see it the same way.  :)
    Post edited by bluecollarart on
  • IQpierceIQpierce Posts: 54Member
    This concerned me a lot and I emailed them specifically about this. I've been working on an indie game project since before the OUYA was announced and its still unreleased and effectively unannounced... I thought entering it into this contest wouldn't be in the spirit of the competition.

    I emailed them and for this reply:

    "Sure! We're totally OK with stuff that has already been worked on, as long as it hasn't seen a release anywhere yet. Thanks for asking though. Good luck!"

    I decided I'm still not comfortable submitting this game; it doesn't feel in the spirit of the "game jam" competition. If the OUYA devs specifically clarify to everyone that such a project would be welcome and sets the expectations that there may be some projects like this, I might reconsider; but it seems like it would put the competition side of this on an unequal footing.
  • bluecollarartbluecollarart Posts: 75Member
    Well that's pretty clear cut.
  • DynamiteReedDynamiteReed Posts: 3Member
    I'm also concerned.  I think the interpretations of "10 days" and "10 days plus 7" are both fair.  However, I've heard enough chatter around here about games that have been in development much longer being entered.  That seems extremely unfair and not in the spirit of the jam/compo.  I think this point needs to be clarified as well.
  • AyrikAyrik Posts: 429Member
    @IQpierce I think most everyone else will be submitting their current work, so no reason for you to miss out just because you have something farther ahead than others. They did say that they will be judging on specific things, rather than how complete the project is.

    "The game doesn't have to be finished, so give it all you've got."

    "We'll pick winners based on:
    • Our purposely subjective views of the game's sheer greatness
    • Community support for the game (i.e., YouTube likes, Tweets, Facebook likes)
    • Successful use of OUYA — processor, sound, screen, and the OUYA Development Kit (controller integration, and even clever use of in-game payments if you choose)"

    I do agree with everyone else that this should have been more clear. A simple name change from "Game Jam" to "Game Competition" would have helped.
    Saga Heroes - Adventure RPG
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  • LaboratoryLaboratory Posts: 24Member
    edited January 2013
    https://twitter.com/LaboratoryGames/status/289622580724383745

    I'd like more discussion on this to occur before the "official rules" drop.

    -Clayton Grey
    Post edited by Laboratory on
  • bluecollarartbluecollarart Posts: 75Member
    Now a dev from Kactus Games tells me they were told the exact opposite. 
    Screenshot of the e-mail: http://i.imgur.com/0lCFw.jpg
    This is what it says:
    "We're going to beef up the language in the official rules due out soon, but ideally the games would be brand new for the game jam--it's not really fair for some developers to bring significantly developed work to the competition. Sorry! Perhaps you can come up with something else, or a variation on the original game? Good luck!"

    So, uh.

    I'm trying to contact OUYA & Killscreen. Hopefully we can sort this out before the contest starts.
  • bluecollarartbluecollarart Posts: 75Member
    I just retweeted you, Laboratory. I would suggest everyone else do the same until we get this cleared up.
  • MagnesusMagnesus Posts: 304Member
    With only new games made especially for this competition it would be much more fair and interesting.

  • GodlyPerfectionGodlyPerfection Posts: 140Member
    So I've decided I'll be working on a new game concept for the competition. I originally saw it as an incentive to get a playable demo together, which was great... but I agree that it really just bites the spirit of the competition. I've got a new concept ready to go already that shouldn't take long to do quickly and will be starting it once I get to a good stopping point on Aggro. Stopping development on Aggro sucks, but I'll deal as this could be a great thing. :)

    I'm sending them an email about submitting a "trial version" .apk made with a Unity Pro trial license... with any sort of success in this game jam the money would go straight to an Android license. Really hoping I can submit a trial .apk so I can participate.
    Aggro Tactics - A tactical strategy virtual board game built with Unity3D 4.0, designed around the concept of Threat/Aggro inspired by the mechanics of chess and a customizable party like in table top games.

    Founder of ReachingPerfection.com
  • LaboratoryLaboratory Posts: 24Member
    I think it's easy for people to hear about the money and get greedy. It makes sense. You've been working hard on your pet project or what-have-you and you see an opportunity to make some money off a project you may have had planned for the crowded mobile market. I get it, but it's a really unpleasant thing to do.

    Maybe they are just hedging their bets as to promote the idea of having great ideas turn up quickly, but wanting to be loose enough to ensure there are at least a few shiny longer term projects to show off at the end of the contest. It is ultimately about their business interest. Understandable. 

    I hope it's just a bit of poor planning, not intentional double-talk, and that a good spirited clarification will be forthcoming.

    -Clayton Grey
  • AyrikAyrik Posts: 429Member
    edited January 2013
    Wow, that's exactly the opposite as was previously said...If it's an actual "game jam" it could be more interesting, but I won't be able to participate. That said, I think it would be great to be a game jam!
    Post edited by Ayrik on
    Saga Heroes - Adventure RPG
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  • GodlyPerfectionGodlyPerfection Posts: 140Member
    For those wondering... I got confirmation that you can use the Unity Pro Trial to create a "trial version" apk for submission into Create.
    Aggro Tactics - A tactical strategy virtual board game built with Unity3D 4.0, designed around the concept of Threat/Aggro inspired by the mechanics of chess and a customizable party like in table top games.

    Founder of ReachingPerfection.com
  • bluecollarartbluecollarart Posts: 75Member
    Kill Screen responded on twitter and cleared this up. Sounds like it is a proper game jam after all. :)

      we will clear this up soon when the full rules drop, but we're only looking for new content created during the jam!"

  • DargothDargoth Posts: 2Member
    Now the question is whether "during the jam" is 10+7 days (making our team safe) or 10 days (which would, again, just kill.)

    Lesson of the day? CLARIFY rules from the get go. ;)
  • erferf Posts: 3Member
    One of the reasons the Global Game Jam has a theme is to prevent people from getting a running start on their games, I imagine. If they don't do that, then you can probably take the original announcement at its word ("though you are welcome to start immediately", in the fine print section) and assume 10+7. It's not like they can really enforce the time constraint, anyway.

    The main point is to make sure all of the games that are entered for this are truly new games and not ports of existing ones. It's a new console, so they want to see new content so that people are excited about it coming out.
  • VicariousEntVicariousEnt Posts: 63Member
    From the FAQ that was just posted to the Create page on Kill Screen...

    "Can I submit a game I've already worked on, as long as it hasn't been released anywhere else?
    No. In order to level the playing field, we are only accepting new work having been created between the initial CREATE announcement on January 7th and the end of the jam on January 23rd. If you're already working on a game for OUYA, perhaps try a new variation, or different take on the same theme! If you win a prize, you will be required to legally verify that this is true, so please be honest!"

    That about clears it up.
  • BalbiBalbi Posts: 198Member
    I'm a bit concerned about the "legal verification" that is necessary. Do I need to get my first line of code notarized? lol
    Lead Developer of Leroux
  • DreamwriterDreamwriter Posts: 768Member
    I think what they mean is you have to sign a contract claiming that you didn't start creating your game before January 7.
  • theaceofthespadetheaceofthespade Posts: 21Member
    When what it actually says:

    "No. In order to level the playing field, we are only accepting new work having been created between the initial CREATE announcement on January 7th and the end of the jam on January 23rd, or old work that other people don't know about yet. If there's no evidence that you were working on it, go ahead and submit it! If you win a prize, you will be required to legally verify that this is true, so please make sure that evidence is hard to find!"
  • SamJSamJ Posts: 18Member
    So what about devs that have lots of Unity scripts? Or code that you want to use from another project that you could easily copy and paste? Is this against the rules or what? We need a strict set of rules to work from or else this competition is just a joke!
  • LitteratusLitteratus Posts: 28Member
    Airborne Dynamo is planning on doing the Jam.  We decided to make a Multiplayer game mode using the same setting (Not necessarily the same assets, although we may be tweaking a couple existing ones to fit).  We have a new controller, network code, etc that we started work on as soon as we heard the original announcement (It said we could start working immediately!).  There may be bits and pieces that we use from our other effort, but everything, including the level, character models/textures, mechanics, etc were started AFTER the Game Jam was announced.

    It didn't seem fair to us to show off our existing work that we have been working on for the better part of last year, but we didn't want to branch out too much either.  I hope this is all within the rules.
  • BalbiBalbi Posts: 198Member
    SamJ said:
    So what about devs that have lots of Unity scripts? Or code that you want to use from another project that you could easily copy and paste? Is this against the rules or what? We need a strict set of rules to work from or else this competition is just a joke!
    I see this as totally fine in my opinion as it's a game jam and you're supposed to shortcut as much as you can.
    Lead Developer of Leroux
  • AyrikAyrik Posts: 429Member
    That's another reason to set a theme, so you can't just copy exactly what you already have.
    Saga Heroes - Adventure RPG
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