I am just released my new game on the Ouya a couple of days ago so I had a good look at the whole Ouya store front-end.
One thing which it is massively missing is a New Games section.
At the moment my new game is lumped in to the Sandbox list right at the end which I think many people will not even bother to scroll down to look at.
This is a massive oversight on the part of Ouya. New games added to the Ouya store do not have a very good chance of being noticed / seen.
For example, on the Google Play store there is a New section for each of the game categories where new games are placed for a month to give them a chance at exposure / visibility. This works well.
And on the Apple App store you can order the games chart by release date so new games also get a good chance at exposure / visibility. This also works well although I prefer the Google Play store system.
Imagine if the Google Play store and the Apple App store just lumped the new games added to the end of a "Sandbox" list? With the amount of games submissions made new games would have less and less chance of being seen and this would get worse as time went on as the list would get bigger and bigger and nobody will spend time travelling far across the games list.
Of course, big high-profile indie / professional games get added to the relevant games lists (Action, arcade, adventure etc..) as soon as they are published but this is not fair on the other indie developers.
Also (and this is a BIG issue), 80% of Ouya players will not keep going across that same massive list every time they want to see what new games are available. It is a pain and it does not show Ouya players that new games are being added all the time in a nice informative way.
I thought Ouya loves indie developers? I am not feeling the love with this Sandbox games system :)
What are other developers thoughts about this? Surely I can not be the only one who has noticed this?
On the OUYA site there is a list of games wich can be sorted by newly-added, I see no reason to not add, at least a list of the last 40 or so games added to the store.
About the Sandbox, I think thats a simple sorting mistale, that CANT be on porpouse!, And it happens on all lists..
Yeah, but the problem with that list it also takes into account games that have been updated. That list should just display the games added for the first time and not include games that have been updated.
I really do like the Ouya but it is issues like this that is keeping most developers from bringing their apps across from mobile.
Seriously? most devs are avoiding the OUYA because the lists on the store a ordered a little weird?
I really doubt it. Most mobile games are designed around touch controls, making the jump from touch screen to tv is probably a far bigger stumbling block than the lack of 'New Games' section in the store.
If you actually read what I am saying above - "issues". So this is one of a few other issues that are putting off developers from publishing on the Ouya.
No, converting a mobile game from touch screen is not really that much work. It just involves changing the input and HUD system. Of course the amount of work needed really depends on the game but generally games with touch screen controls on the screen (arcade etc..) are easy to bring across to Ouya.
The Ouya needs games to survive and sell more units and it also needs the players to buy games. If you do not make this as easy as possible for the players then it will reduce game sales.
The Apple App store and the Google Play stores are the biggest and most profitable in the world as they are well designed. Remember these stores have been going for quite a few years now so they are well matured as app stores.
Every app store out there has a new games section or you can order the chart by release date. There is a very good reason why the all the app stores do this.
There is nothing wrong with an app store arranging it games differently but it the arrangement just plain does not work very well then it needs fixing.
The Ouya store has only really just launched so it needs a lot of improvement. It is as simple as that.
Actually, the Apple App store and other app stores have serious discoverability problems. Generally, it's good to challenge the assumption that just because other stores have something, it is necessarily a good thing.
In the case of a New Releases section, there are a number of problems, but basically it creates a "one shot" type of store. Especially as the store grows and more titles appear, being in new releases is your only realistic chance to get visibility on the front page of the store. That means you need to front-load all your marketing efforts into a narrow launch window
That in turn increases risk. If you happen to come out on a day when, by chance, a big name release comes out, then your marketing spend will get drowned out by that, and it will take all the attention and eyeballs away from your game. That could be both on the OUYA, or elsewhere (such as recently, when GTA V came out). Equally, you may just happen to come out on a day when a lot of other people are also releasing. Again, you've got more competition, and if you have the misfortune to be the first release out on that particular day, you might find your game is bumped way back on the list by lunchtime.
It also means you can't do a beta without blowing your one big chance, especially since OUYA are discouraging multiple builds of the same game on the store (i.e. no separate entry on the store for the lite/premium versions). Maybe when OUYA get round to expanding the "MAKE" section of the UI/Launcher, then that will include features to let you do limited betas or distribute apps/games without needing to put it in Discover/store. But I've not heard anything yet from OUYA about when they will be working on that, so could be for some time yet
Now, I agree that the current Discover store isn't really working, but no need to repeat the mistakes of other app stores. I also agree that people want to know what is new, rather than have to trawl through the store trying to find things they've not seen before.
In fact, it's from that angle of "how to get rid of old stuff you're not interested in", rather than how to highlight new stuff, that OUYA have started to address things from. Starting with letting you push things to the back of the list if you're not interested in them.
I think they should explore this more, perhaps using that Orange frame/box they put around tiles when you highlight them. Make it lighter / brighter for new titles, and make the black alpha mask (the thing that makes the tiles seem dimmer / darker when you're not browsing that category), make that darker for games you've previously put to the back of the list. Or could make some of the tiles animated / have flashing or glowing borders if they are new. A flame-coloured glow if they are "hot" / popular / trending or whatever
Could also try things with shape/scale, such as making the tiles for less popular games slightly smaller, or making the tile scale "pop" / get bigger when a new title is highlighted, but stay the same size for when it's not a new game.
There are all sorts of more and less subtle things I could think of to add to those ideas. And each takes time to implement properly. But the point is, discoverability is an unsolved problem, and Apple et al. aren't really interested in solving it so long as a decent number of apps at the top of the store continue to make them money.
OUYA are trying to solve the problem, so lets help them by suggesting new, innovative solutions rather than just falling back on the old design patterns that don't work
Or here's another idea. Make the tiles on the store rap around (so you can scroll in either direction / they don't have an "end").
When you load up the store, the tiles on the left are new releases and the tiles on the right are recommended / highest in the o-rank. Then, the further you get from the start point, the older or lower the games in the rank.
Only tricky bit is when some games are both high in o-rank and new (which seems to happen quite a bit at the moment for big-name new releases). Do you leave them in twice?
I'm not a big fan of seeing the same games in multiple lists within the store, but I can't see a way around that. I haven't the faintest idea how the o-rank works, but I assume the longer your game is out, the better chance of a good score.
I think the biggest and most important thing store-wize that OUYA need to sort out, is to have the search function work correctly. For example, I just this second searched the word 'puzzle' and got only three results. I know for a fact that there are many puzzle games on OUYA, many of which aren't even out of the sandbox. The search function should return ALL games/apps relating to the word entered, be it name or genre, regardless of their status. Not just listing those where the keyword is part of their name.
SpoonThumb Your ideas are to complex / fiddly for the app store. All it comes down to is getting good visibility for a new game and the big app stores know this.
It is always best to keep things simple for the app users, and you can not get much more simple then a New Games section.
The Sandbox section can still be present and the new games can be put on this list once they have spent a set amount of time on the New Games section.
I would not worry about competition on the New Games section as there are not exactly a ton of game being released everyday on the Ouya platform,
I've made this same comment in other spots-- but yes, there absolutely needs to be a New Games list, that *also* shows when a game has been updated. It can very simply be the most recent 50 games, say, to have approved submissions. (with maybe a rule that you can't be on the list more than once per month?)
Xbox indie games has this (at least, for new games-- not updates). I have released games on it, and the bulk of my profits were made on the week or so it was on that list. It was front and center, and a lot of players bought it simply out of impulse purchases.
The sandbox system that OUYA uses is just flat horrible, and discourages discoverability. I'm so disappointed with how my game (which I spent a fair amount of time on) just immediately got buried, never to be discovered, that I probably will not submit another game to OUYA unless they fix this problem. Certainly it won't be my first choice of platforms in the future.
I do not agree about showing updated games as that defeats the purpose. People will be updating their games just to get visibility.
Otherwise they won't be updating at all. Some visibility should be given to updates - maybe the review team could mark huge updates (that add a lot of content / levels) to be included or it should be limited to one update triggering showing up in new section per a few months? Without it old game is practically dead in the store with no chance of reviving.
I do not agree about showing updated games as that defeats the purpose. People will be updating their games just to get visibility.
Otherwise they won't be updating at all. Some visibility should be given to updates - maybe the review team could mark huge updates (that add a lot of content / levels) to be included or it should be limited to one update triggering showing up in new section per a few months? Without it old game is practically dead in the store with no chance of reviving.
This is what I was getting at. When you break it down, you find there are lots of problems with a New Releases list and no really good solutions
Apple
and Google have no reason to improve discoverability on their stores.
People still download and spend on the same number of apps, regardless
of whether those apps are "the best" or whether they are whatever
happens to be at the top of the charts
The mobile App stores do
not work in favour of developers. They work in favour of whoever has the
most money to spend on marketing, and whoever has existing networks of
apps/games that they can use to cross-promote.
I'm just spitting out ideas, not pretending to come up with anything better. But there's no point in reproducing the mistakes of other app stores just because.
Maybe it would be better to have a "New Releases" list, but within each Genre category, as a stop gap? I certainly think expanding out the genre sections to be more than just a wall of tiles, but actually give contextual information and be a smart way of grouping apps together, that is an avenue that could be explored, and having a "New Releases" section within each Genre category could be something to sit along side "What's hot", "Editor's Pick" etc on the Genre pages
I've made this same comment in other spots--
but yes, there absolutely needs to be a New Games list, that *also*
shows when a game has been updated. It can very simply be the most
recent 50 games, say, to have approved submissions. (with maybe a rule
that you can't be on the list more than once per month?)
Xbox
indie games has this (at least, for new games-- not updates). I have
released games on it, and the bulk of my profits were made on the week
or so it was on that list. It was front and center, and a lot of
players bought it simply out of impulse purchases.
The sandbox
system that OUYA uses is just flat horrible, and discourages
discoverability. I'm so disappointed with how my game (which I spent a
fair amount of time on) just immediately got buried, never to be
discovered, that I probably will not submit another game to OUYA unless
they fix this problem. Certainly it won't be my first choice of
platforms in the future.
The "most recent 50 games" idea isn't going to scale well.
Equally the 1 update a month idea has some serious issues. Imagine if
you release your big content update and then find a critical bug and
have to update again a couple of days later. Does that mean you drop out
of the New Releases list? Or conversely, if you find a critical bug a
week before your big expansion update is due to be released, and you
can't afford to wait the week to include it in the big expansion. Does
that expansion then have to wait a month? If you're releasing cross
platform, it then throws everything else off / back.
The sandbox isn't working well, but why replace it with something equally flawed?
Just add the newly-uploaded games, why updates?? People only need the update when they have the game installed!
Also, remember that Google did not had for a looong time a "new" section, and even now it technically doesnt, It has "Top New Free", "Top New Paid", wich are basically sorted by statistics. I dont know how Apple does it, but I suposse it is around the same thing.
My point is, there is no need to have a strict list that only displays the new games uploaded to the store, yes, it is a good idea to improove discovereability, but its not the only way, you can also show the latest uploaded and best rated games in a list like trending. (maybe even better with a proper ratings system?)
There is a LOT of room for improovement in the current Discover store.. it just needs to be done! :S
Just add the newly-uploaded games, why updates?? People only need the update when they have the game installed!
Updates to games you don't have. Because some games are released before they are complete and add new levels and content later - they need some visibility in the store. Otherwise the only way to get visibility after update would be to create it as a new game (which would screw those who bought the first one).
Also, remember that Google did not had for a looong time a "new" section, and even now it technically doesnt, It has "Top New Free", "Top New Paid", wich are basically sorted by statistics.
Google Play resigned from Just In section because they have no reviews and it was full of crappy apps. Top New Free and Top New Paid still consist only of apps that are not more than 30 days old (you get 30 days of that free advertisement on Google Play). It works quite well for both developers and users (at least for me in both of those use cases).
SlideMe on the other hand has a new and updated section - and it gives developers more downloads than Google Play sometimes. Also updating on Google Play often gives you a boost in downloads which means Google algorithms take updating into account somehow.
Regarding the "why include updates?" in this hypothetical New Games list--
Again, let me tell a tale from Xbox Indie Games.
So, I had a game there, it did OK, I made back my money, etc. Well, many of the players began asking me to put out new levels. It had been a few months, and sales had tapered off, so I figured it might be a good move to attract new players (and make a little more money-- I have bills to pay, afterall).
So I worked for a few weeks, added some new content, then re-submitted to Xbox Indie Games. And, just like the OUYA-- no one knew about it. I didn't get put back on any kind of "updated" list, and my sales didn't see any kind of bump at all. Even the players didn't realize that my game had new content added! The lesson I learned from that experience was exactly what @Magnesus said-- that I should have just put out a whole new game.
Basically, the system of only showing new releases (and not updates) means that only new games have traffic and customers driven to them.
I guess that's still better, though, than OUYA's current system, of no game at all have customers driven to them. It seems like the only way to get popular on the OUYA is either to (a) get lucky, or (b) create the most slam-tastic game imaginable that news of it spreads like wild fire on Facebook and Twitter.
If you can make a game like option B-- way to go! I salute you. For the rest of us, option A just doesn't give any kind of financial incentive to develop for the OUYA. Not when we could be spending that time developing for Xbox, Google Play, PS4, etc. where we might have a shot to at least *break even*.
But I digress-- I'm not sure what should be done about updates to make it fair. Maybe 2 lists? New Releases and Newly Updated? All I know is that trying SOMETHING is better that NOTHING, which is what we currently have. The sandbox is a sad joke played on idiots like me who wanted to try their hand and lend some support to the OUYA project.
Now I'm going to go eat corn muffins and cheer up. Happy Friday, everyone!
An Updated section is a bit tricky. In your case the update was big (new content, levels, features, etc.). What about all the updates that simply fix bugs or similar small updates? For the purpose you're describing these types of updates would clog the Updates section, and therefore still not accomplish what you're hoping it would.
@Piers - since each update is reviewed anyway I think the reviewers could easily find out if the game should be put into new updates list or not (even by judging the release info). And there could be a limit - for example a game can get into the list only if it wasn't on that list in the last 60 days (change the number of date to regulate how many games get into the list depending on traffic).
Of course there will be abuse, but there always is.
@Piers, I agree that we wouldn't want people to clog the updates section and attempt to "game" the system. Having a simple 60-day limit as @Magensus said could fix (or reduce) that.
But, I don't want to get too hung up on an Update list-- the "New Games" list is the real wish, here! An "Updated" list would be wonderful, but I'd rather have one of the hypothetical lists than none at all.
Yossarian
Posts: 31Member
Comments
There is nothing wrong with an app store arranging it games differently but it the arrangement just plain does not work very well then it needs fixing.
In the case of a New Releases section, there are a number of problems, but basically it creates a "one shot" type of store. Especially as the store grows and more titles appear, being in new releases is your only realistic chance to get visibility on the front page of the store. That means you need to front-load all your marketing efforts into a narrow launch window
That in turn increases risk. If you happen to come out on a day when, by chance, a big name release comes out, then your marketing spend will get drowned out by that, and it will take all the attention and eyeballs away from your game. That could be both on the OUYA, or elsewhere (such as recently, when GTA V came out). Equally, you may just happen to come out on a day when a lot of other people are also releasing. Again, you've got more competition, and if you have the misfortune to be the first release out on that particular day, you might find your game is bumped way back on the list by lunchtime.
It also means you can't do a beta without blowing your one big chance, especially since OUYA are discouraging multiple builds of the same game on the store (i.e. no separate entry on the store for the lite/premium versions). Maybe when OUYA get round to expanding the "MAKE" section of the UI/Launcher, then that will include features to let you do limited betas or distribute apps/games without needing to put it in Discover/store. But I've not heard anything yet from OUYA about when they will be working on that, so could be for some time yet
Now, I agree that the current Discover store isn't really working, but no need to repeat the mistakes of other app stores. I also agree that people want to know what is new, rather than have to trawl through the store trying to find things they've not seen before.
In fact, it's from that angle of "how to get rid of old stuff you're not interested in", rather than how to highlight new stuff, that OUYA have started to address things from. Starting with letting you push things to the back of the list if you're not interested in them.
I think they should explore this more, perhaps using that Orange frame/box they put around tiles when you highlight them. Make it lighter / brighter for new titles, and make the black alpha mask (the thing that makes the tiles seem dimmer / darker when you're not browsing that category), make that darker for games you've previously put to the back of the list. Or could make some of the tiles animated / have flashing or glowing borders if they are new. A flame-coloured glow if they are "hot" / popular / trending or whatever
Could also try things with shape/scale, such as making the tiles for less popular games slightly smaller, or making the tile scale "pop" / get bigger when a new title is highlighted, but stay the same size for when it's not a new game.
There are all sorts of more and less subtle things I could think of to add to those ideas. And each takes time to implement properly. But the point is, discoverability is an unsolved problem, and Apple et al. aren't really interested in solving it so long as a decent number of apps at the top of the store continue to make them money.
OUYA are trying to solve the problem, so lets help them by suggesting new, innovative solutions rather than just falling back on the old design patterns that don't work
Website
When you load up the store, the tiles on the left are new releases and the tiles on the right are recommended / highest in the o-rank. Then, the further you get from the start point, the older or lower the games in the rank.
Only tricky bit is when some games are both high in o-rank and new (which seems to happen quite a bit at the moment for big-name new releases). Do you leave them in twice?
Website
Xbox indie games has this (at least, for new games-- not updates). I have released games on it, and the bulk of my profits were made on the week or so it was on that list. It was front and center, and a lot of players bought it simply out of impulse purchases.
The sandbox system that OUYA uses is just flat horrible, and discourages discoverability. I'm so disappointed with how my game (which I spent a fair amount of time on) just immediately got buried, never to be discovered, that I probably will not submit another game to OUYA unless they fix this problem. Certainly it won't be my first choice of platforms in the future.
Currently available game: Alex the Alien
This is what I was getting at. When you break it down, you find there are lots of problems with a New Releases list and no really good solutions
Apple and Google have no reason to improve discoverability on their stores. People still download and spend on the same number of apps, regardless of whether those apps are "the best" or whether they are whatever happens to be at the top of the charts
The mobile App stores do not work in favour of developers. They work in favour of whoever has the most money to spend on marketing, and whoever has existing networks of apps/games that they can use to cross-promote.
I'm just spitting out ideas, not pretending to come up with anything better. But there's no point in reproducing the mistakes of other app stores just because.
Maybe it would be better to have a "New Releases" list, but within each Genre category, as a stop gap? I certainly think expanding out the genre sections to be more than just a wall of tiles, but actually give contextual information and be a smart way of grouping apps together, that is an avenue that could be explored, and having a "New Releases" section within each Genre category could be something to sit along side "What's hot", "Editor's Pick" etc on the Genre pages
_________
The "most recent 50 games" idea isn't going to scale well. Equally the 1 update a month idea has some serious issues. Imagine if you release your big content update and then find a critical bug and have to update again a couple of days later. Does that mean you drop out of the New Releases list? Or conversely, if you find a critical bug a week before your big expansion update is due to be released, and you can't afford to wait the week to include it in the big expansion. Does that expansion then have to wait a month? If you're releasing cross platform, it then throws everything else off / back.
The sandbox isn't working well, but why replace it with something equally flawed?
Website
Google Play resigned from Just In section because they have no reviews and it was full of crappy apps. Top New Free and Top New Paid still consist only of apps that are not more than 30 days old (you get 30 days of that free advertisement on Google Play). It works quite well for both developers and users (at least for me in both of those use cases). SlideMe on the other hand has a new and updated section - and it gives developers more downloads than Google Play sometimes. Also updating on Google Play often gives you a boost in downloads which means Google algorithms take updating into account somehow.
Again, let me tell a tale from Xbox Indie Games.
So, I had a game there, it did OK, I made back my money, etc. Well, many of the players began asking me to put out new levels. It had been a few months, and sales had tapered off, so I figured it might be a good move to attract new players (and make a little more money-- I have bills to pay, afterall).
So I worked for a few weeks, added some new content, then re-submitted to Xbox Indie Games. And, just like the OUYA-- no one knew about it. I didn't get put back on any kind of "updated" list, and my sales didn't see any kind of bump at all. Even the players didn't realize that my game had new content added! The lesson I learned from that experience was exactly what @Magnesus said-- that I should have just put out a whole new game.
Basically, the system of only showing new releases (and not updates) means that only new games have traffic and customers driven to them.
I guess that's still better, though, than OUYA's current system, of no game at all have customers driven to them. It seems like the only way to get popular on the OUYA is either to (a) get lucky, or (b) create the most slam-tastic game imaginable that news of it spreads like wild fire on Facebook and Twitter.
If you can make a game like option B-- way to go! I salute you. For the rest of us, option A just doesn't give any kind of financial incentive to develop for the OUYA. Not when we could be spending that time developing for Xbox, Google Play, PS4, etc. where we might have a shot to at least *break even*.
But I digress-- I'm not sure what should be done about updates to make it fair. Maybe 2 lists? New Releases and Newly Updated? All I know is that trying SOMETHING is better that NOTHING, which is what we currently have. The sandbox is a sad joke played on idiots like me who wanted to try their hand and lend some support to the OUYA project.
Now I'm going to go eat corn muffins and cheer up. Happy Friday, everyone!
Richard
Currently available game: Alex the Alien
Of course there will be abuse, but there always is.
But, I don't want to get too hung up on an Update list-- the "New Games" list is the real wish, here! An "Updated" list would be wonderful, but I'd rather have one of the hypothetical lists than none at all.
Thanks
Richard
Currently available game: Alex the Alien