OUYA: Don't do yearly refreshes!

OK OUYA... I'm hoping to get a lot of support behind me for this.
Don't do a yearly refresh!
Seriously, don't release an OUYA 2 next year. Wait. Give it time. Give developers more time to develop for the OUYA 1. Work out the flaws.

Wait just one extra year. Then release OUYA 2 with Tegra 5. Because at that point, you'll have learned from your mistakes, worked out a better OS... and then when Tegra 5 is available you release OUYA 2 which will objectively outperform the Xbox 360 and PS3 just in raw GFLOPS.
Don't believe me? Tegra 5 so far has been announced to peak at 400 GFLOPS when clocked at 1GHZ. The Xbox 360 tops out at just under 200, and PS3 at around 218. So objectively it will outperform them by about twice as much.

If you don't release the next one a year from now with Tegra 4, it will actually have a bigger impact. For one, a lot of developers and gamers simply won't be keeping up with a yearly refresh (I'm sorry to say I certainly won't). For another, if the power jumps from about Wii-level, to suddenly curbstomping the PS3, I think it would actually get the attention of a lot of gaming media.

Thoughts?
You didn't remember the plot of the Doctor Who movie because there was none; Just a bunch of plot holes strung together.

Comments

  • OrikuOriku Posts: 263Member
    Here's my thoughts:

    1.  If there's demand for a better Ouya, let it be made.
    2.  Waiting a year for the "next big thing" will always keep you waiting.  Sometimes you have to just draw the line and do it.
    3.  If Ouya plays it too conservatively and releases once every 2-3 years, they're leaving open a good chance for a competitor to jump in.  The mobile market is improving at an incredible rate and the Tegra 3 is a late 2011/early 2012 product.
    4. If the Ouya 2 is released in 2014 and uses the Tegra 5, they probably would not be able to sell themselves as the $100 console anymore.  The Tegra 5 will likely be much more expensive, as it would be a brand new chip.

    Of course, that's just my 2 cents :)
  • Killa_MaakiKilla_Maaki Posts: 504Member
    Oriku said:
    Here's my thoughts:

    1.  If there's demand for a better Ouya, let it be made.
    2.  Waiting a year for the "next big thing" will always keep you waiting.  Sometimes you have to just draw the line and do it.
    3.  If Ouya plays it too conservatively and releases once every 2-3 years, they're leaving open a good chance for a competitor to jump in.  The mobile market is improving at an incredible rate and the Tegra 3 is a late 2011/early 2012 product.
    4. If the Ouya 2 is released in 2014 and uses the Tegra 5, they probably would not be able to sell themselves as the $100 console anymore.  The Tegra 5 will likely be much more expensive, as it would be a brand new chip.

    Of course, that's just my 2 cents :)
    The point is NOT to release in 2014, but in 2015. Clearly they need to wait until the chip lowers in price. The only difference between this and the announced yearly refresh is that they skip one of the years (two-year cycle instead of a one-year cycle).

    Additionally, yeah this is kind of about power but on the other hand I think a twice-yearly refresh makes more sense from a consumer standpoint. I don't want to buy a new OUYA every year, and most likely won't. Either I'll be left behind if the other developers all switch, or the OUYA 2 won't get any traction if all the developers stay on OUYA 1.
    You didn't remember the plot of the Doctor Who movie because there was none; Just a bunch of plot holes strung together.
  • MagnesusMagnesus Posts: 304Member
    edited July 2013
    OUYA: DO yearly refreshes.
    :)

    Seriously though Ouya can't survive with only Ouya 1 for longer than a year (in my humble opinion).
    Post edited by Magnesus on

  • giantpunegiantpune Posts: 33Member
    They need to focus on their customer service and software.  Has anybody even gotten a response from a real person in customer service?  It took them 3 weeks to send me the canned automated email that everybody gets.  And the lack of a way to interrupt normal boot and get to recovery, no upfront price list in the store, and similar software issues are big turnoffs.  If they cant fix these huge issues, they wont last long enough to even start thinking about the next generation of hardware.
  • dra6onfiredra6onfire Posts: 91Member
    Assuming that the controller is really worth 50 bucks and Ouya intends to stay on point with  the 99 dollar cost of the ouya and controller bundle then that yearly refresh (barring major controller updates) will only run you 49 dollars. If that price point for an updated console is genuinely too rough for you to handle, Then there is nothing stopping you from developing for the current ouya and publishing to the new one. Since Ouya 2 should be compatible with everything Ouya 1, I seriously doubt developer traction is going to be a problem. If there was going to be a significant backward compatibility problem, I would agree with you but there shouldn't be. If Ouya really wants to pull big developers, they need the draw that the yearly refresh will be to push devs to take another look at the platform.

    Every year samsung reminds us that they are here with a new galaxy something or other. As long as its continuous improvement and not backtracking, I see no reason Ouya can't pull off the same.
  • MagnesusMagnesus Posts: 304Member
    They need to focus on their customer service and software.  Has anybody even gotten a response from a real person in customer service?  It took them 3 weeks to send me the canned automated email that everybody gets.


    Tree weeks? Wow. I'll stop complaining about 3 days it takes to review (and reject) each update I make to my game.

  • N3moN3mo Posts: 10Member
    Assuming that the controller is really worth 50 bucks and Ouya intends to stay on point with  the 99 dollar cost of the ouya and controller bundle then that yearly refresh (barring major controller updates) will only run you 49 dollars.
    Unlikely.
  • KonajuGamesKonajuGames Posts: 560Member
    Magnesus said:
    Tree weeks?
    How long is a tree week?  Is that like a dog year?
  • rumplestilzkenrumplestilzken Posts: 181Member
    With mobile hardware, yearly refreshes are ALREADY a bit out of date. 

    I think that yearly refreshes will be a good thing, it will keep the market fresh, and hopefully drive developers to put out application/games that will use that power. Tegra 4 is at least x3 as powerful as the Tegra 3, and in graphics capability alone this is a WELL worth while update. By next year the Tegra 4 will have come down in price, and will be a perfect fit for the Ouya 2. $100 for an upgrade on a game console of the magnitude that each Tegra iteration is going to give, is a well worth while venture for any developer in my mind.

  • rumplestilzkenrumplestilzken Posts: 181Member
    giantpune said:
    They need to focus on their customer service and software.  Has anybody even gotten a response from a real person in customer service?  It took them 3 weeks to send me the canned automated email that everybody gets.  And the lack of a way to interrupt normal boot and get to recovery, no upfront price list in the store, and similar software issues are big turnoffs.  If they cant fix these huge issues, they wont last long enough to even start thinking about the next generation of hardware.
    Ouya has been very upfront about the software, it will continue to be a WIP even after launch.

    As far as customer service, that sucks :/ however i think that with what i think is likely a smaller team, they are likely just overwhelmed and once things settle down they will be better to get back to us. I'm sure it is no different than trying to get in contact with the Sony or Microsoft dev teams around launch time ;)

    Make sure you voice your opinion about the OS on this forum and they will see it eventually. They seem to post pretty often from Team Ouya. Then maybe you can get fixes for what you think are problems.
  • SpoonThumbSpoonThumb Posts: 426Member
    Most consumers expect that the product they buy is final, not something that's constantly being improved and updated even as you use it.

    OUYA have failed to communicate that, so most people have taken it at face value / first impressions. Even if there is a big update a month later, and the whole thing plays and feels completely different, that doesn't matter, because the consumer has already made a judgement

    People aren't used to the idea that they might put something in a cupboard, then when they pull it out 6 months later and it's magically got a whole lot better. Trying to persuade them to take it out and give the OUYA a second chance will be incredibly difficult. "Well.. it was a bit meh last time, and I can't see why that will have changed"

    OUYA 2 will be perceived as different enough from OUYA 1 that people will be prepared to take a second look. OUYA will have already (hopefully) made the fixes to OUYA 1 and more, but OUYA 2 is the opportunity to advertise that to a sceptical public who associate OUYA 1 with all the flaws

    The hardware is actually irrelevant so long as people perceive that it has changed enough that OUYA 2 isn't just an OUYA 1 painted a different colour.

    A good example of all this is with the OUYA controller, which I explain here how and why it needs to be seen to be radically overhauled in time for OUYA 2

    As for timing, OUYA need to do this as quickly as they possibly can, but at the same time, need to have actually solved all the issues/flaws (real and perceived) with the current OUYA. Once PS4 and Xbox One hit in November, OUYA aren't going to get any sort of press or coverage, and they don't have enough time between now and then anyway to fix things.

    OUYA 2 has to come long enough after those systems are released to not get drowned out by them. Early summer 2014 is probably the earliest they can do that.

    Leave it any later, and OUYA will probably have lost too much momentum (and money) in the meantime to recover. There is also the thing with the yearly Tegra release cycle where in the second half of 2014, Tegra 5 will already be on the market in many devices, but not have come down in price enough that it can fit in the OUYA for $99.

    Also the power of the hardware is not really important if OUYA can pitch the games right. Just like the Wii was underpowered, the OUYA can still appeal to a casual audience, kids and as a party games console. (So long as they only imply they are like the Wii, and don't actually explicitly compare themselves to it, as people will rip into how arrogant OUYA are to compare themselves to the biggest selling console of all time).

    In terms of dev relations, rebooting the image of OUYA in the form of an OUYA 2 next summer, will give developers more confidence in the system (remember, many are themselves consumers and will be swayed by what the industry publications and their fans are saying)

    Taking a clear direction about being the new party games console, will help developers understand who exactly the OUYA is for, because they sure as hell don't know at the moment. That's something OUYA can start doing now, and can build up to be a really strong image in the lead up to OUYA 2.

    Both those above things I think will be far more important to attracting developers than some worries about Tegra 4 vs Tegra 5, especially considering Android ensures backward compatibility, and high graphic fidelity games that take advantage of that power will be in the minority anyway

  • MagnesusMagnesus Posts: 304Member
    Magnesus said:
    Tree weeks?
    How long is a tree week?  Is that like a dog year?



    Close to three weeks. :)

  • rumplestilzkenrumplestilzken Posts: 181Member
    Most consumers expect that the product they buy is final, not something that's constantly being improved and updated even as you use it.

    OUYA have failed to communicate that, so most people have taken it at face value / first impressions. Even if there is a big update a month later, and the whole thing plays and feels completely different, that doesn't matter, because the consumer has already made a judgement

    People aren't used to the idea that they might put something in a cupboard, then when they pull it out 6 months later and it's magically got a whole lot better. Trying to persuade them to take it out and give the OUYA a second chance will be incredibly difficult. "Well.. it was a bit meh last time, and I can't see why that will have changed"

    OUYA 2 will be perceived as different enough from OUYA 1 that people will be prepared to take a second look. OUYA will have already (hopefully) made the fixes to OUYA 1 and more, but OUYA 2 is the opportunity to advertise that to a sceptical public who associate OUYA 1 with all the flaws

    The hardware is actually irrelevant so long as people perceive that it has changed enough that OUYA 2 isn't just an OUYA 1 painted a different colour.

    A good example of all this is with the OUYA controller, which I explain here how and why it needs to be seen to be radically overhauled in time for OUYA 2

    As for timing, OUYA need to do this as quickly as they possibly can, but at the same time, need to have actually solved all the issues/flaws (real and perceived) with the current OUYA. Once PS4 and Xbox One hit in November, OUYA aren't going to get any sort of press or coverage, and they don't have enough time between now and then anyway to fix things.

    OUYA 2 has to come long enough after those systems are released to not get drowned out by them. Early summer 2014 is probably the earliest they can do that.

    Leave it any later, and OUYA will probably have lost too much momentum (and money) in the meantime to recover. There is also the thing with the yearly Tegra release cycle where in the second half of 2014, Tegra 5 will already be on the market in many devices, but not have come down in price enough that it can fit in the OUYA for $99.

    Also the power of the hardware is not really important if OUYA can pitch the games right. Just like the Wii was underpowered, the OUYA can still appeal to a casual audience, kids and as a party games console. (So long as they only imply they are like the Wii, and don't actually explicitly compare themselves to it, as people will rip into how arrogant OUYA are to compare themselves to the biggest selling console of all time).

    In terms of dev relations, rebooting the image of OUYA in the form of an OUYA 2 next summer, will give developers more confidence in the system (remember, many are themselves consumers and will be swayed by what the industry publications and their fans are saying)

    Taking a clear direction about being the new party games console, will help developers understand who exactly the OUYA is for, because they sure as hell don't know at the moment. That's something OUYA can start doing now, and can build up to be a really strong image in the lead up to OUYA 2.

    Both those above things I think will be far more important to attracting developers than some worries about Tegra 4 vs Tegra 5, especially considering Android ensures backward compatibility, and high graphic fidelity games that take advantage of that power will be in the minority anyway

    While i agree with what you say to a certain point, the hardware is a definite draw for certain developers and certain types of games/gamers. The Tegra 5 will surpass current generation consoles, and that will be a HUGE turning point for mobile, we will start seeing larger console quality games being released on mobile hardware (while we have some now they are few and far between). 

    Compatibility should not likely be an issue with Android being the OS.

    I also think that the Ouya 1 is a trial run in many peoples eyes. By the time the Ouya 2 has been announced, we will see much more of what the Ouya is capable of, both from a development point of view and a sales and statistics point of view. As far as i know, there has not yet been another tv bound android console actually released. Sure there are tons in the works, but the Ouya is in new territory, and it will take some time for it to sort itself out and really shine, which it will, given the right circumstances. And with the free to play model at that there are a lot of things working at once. Once things settle i think people will have a better outlook on the current gen Ouya, which will lend its hand to the Ouya 2, and better hardware will only be a helping point.
  • rumplestilzkenrumplestilzken Posts: 181Member
    Also, i don't think anyone is thinking that the Ouya is competing with the top 3. They are in their own market at this point. Come the Tegra 5, then we might start getting blurry lines, right now i don't think anyone will confuse that line. The Ouya provides a somewhat different and somewhat the same experience, and that has shown through the majority of the games that have been released. I personally hope that particular line is blurred in the coming months. Previous generation console quality games are easily possible on the Ouya, and i would like to see that start to shine through. More polish and less mobile like gameplay is what the Ouya needs, but that is up to us ;)
  • SpoonThumbSpoonThumb Posts: 426Member
    Sure, but why not release OUYA 2 next year, and OUYA 3 with Tegra 5 the year after?
  • rumplestilzkenrumplestilzken Posts: 181Member
    Because having better hardware will allow developers to use that to its full advantage, and possibly produce better quality (quality taking performance and complexity as well as graphics capability in mind) games. I realize that mobile games do not often push the system to the threshold, but i really would like to look at the Ouya a little differently. Not exactly like a console as the hardware refresh rate will be MUCH higher, but not like a mobile platform where all the games are mobile-esque gameplay. I would like to see real console games on these systems, and i think having higher specs will help give the system a little more credibility. The Tegra 4 has x6 the graphics shaders and is using a newer cpu core architecture. Given that hardware, i think developers will be more likely to look at it more of a console in its own right and less of a toy. ya know? 
  • ShushShush Posts: 178Member
    edited July 2013
    Personally I can't wait for the Tegra 4, with 6 times the GPU processing power of the Tegra 3, (72 non-unified shader units vs 12), we'll be able to realise modern day post processing effects using advanced fragment shaders with high resolution meshes.

    I'll probably switch to my fully deferred renderer for the Tegra4, my current OUYA engine uses an FBO as a very small G buffer combined with a standard forward renderer for lighting/shadows.

    My only real concern with the Tegra4 is that it still seems to be light on overall memory bandwidth and hence I am expecting similar fill rate issues as the Tegra3. Obviously instead of rendering to 1920*1080 we'll be able to reduce the resolution to overcome this potential issue as we do now, just not as drastically.
    Post edited by Shush on
  • Killa_MaakiKilla_Maaki Posts: 504Member
    Shush said:
    Personally I can't wait for the Tegra 4, with 6 times the GPU processing power of the Tegra 3, (72 non-unified shader units vs 12), we'll be able to realise modern day post processing effects using advanced fragment shaders with high resolution meshes.

    I'll probably switch to my fully deferred render for the Tegra4, my current OUYA engine uses an FBO as a very small G buffer combined with a standard forward renderer for lighting/shadows.

    My only real concern with the Tegra4 is that it still seems to be light on overall memory bandwidth and hence I am expecting similar fill rate issues as the Tegra3. Obviously instead of rendering to 1920*1080 we'll be able to reduce the resolution to overcome this potential issue as we do now, just not as drastically.
    Huh..... do you think Tegra 4 is fast enough for deferred rendering? Would love to know the answer to this.

    Come to think of it, at low resolution it should be fast enough. I am already running my game at Wii resolution to avoid fillrate issues (I plan to have plenty of particle effects, so fillrate is important). I suppose Tegra 4 should handle deferred rendering just fine at 480p, right?
    You didn't remember the plot of the Doctor Who movie because there was none; Just a bunch of plot holes strung together.
  • ShushShush Posts: 178Member
    Absoloutely it will be, of course you will have to lower your resolution of your G-Buffer, FBO's and final render buffer to achieve the interactive frame rates that you require as it is more fill rate hungry than traditional forward rendering.

    When I first received my OUYA in early January, the first example I had running on it, (after San-Angeles), was a deferred renderer of an ocean scene that I developed at work. It ran at around 1.5 fps compared to 150+ on the desktop, but it ran fine, (after suitable modification to the shaders, ie removing tessellation, "OpenGL ES'ing" them etc).
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