Ouya Launched with a Futuristic Tactical Combat Racing Game!?! Sucks to be me...
Fortunately, it's just another Wipeout ripoff, so the Game I conceived for XBOX to challenge Wipeout on Sony can still stand well against Flashout 3D...
Wipeout's Tactical Combat elements weren't very serious. Too Arcade-style. Deadly Realism is cooler. Most peeps play EVE Online and WoW because they're serious, not because it's "fun". More Hardcore Players in Pay-2-Play MMOs. My Game is half a new kind of MMO and half Single Player "Career" Mode. Tutorial Version will offer a Full Playthrough as one Playable Character; Full Single Player Version offers 47 additional Playable Characters for cheap or Free; "SE-LMO" Version offers Full Multiplayer after purchasing a Competitor Account, either via Bidding(due to demand) or for a fixed, one-time Fee, probably $30-75. But the fixed price is only a bargain if you are good enough to Survive. Run Free, or Die Trying...
Fatal Inertia definitely had issues, but it was a much cooler Game. And F-Zero had larger Fields of Competitors per race, right? Up to 30. Still not enough. Think TrackMania...
And what about a Racing Game geared toward Spectators? Think NASCAR. So few drive, so many want to...
I'm kinda miffed I've gotta build a Game like I've conceived. Someone else should have been there years ago. Microsoft really blew it with Quantum Redshift too. They got tired of trying and F-Zero/Wipeout Fans probably got sick of giving the Xbox attempts in the Genre the benefit of a playthrough. It's a delicate Formula and you've got to get it right or *phut* goes all that $ and an entire Dev Cycle...
:~: UPDATE :~:
I've been pondering the Player Statistics on the Racing Genre ever since I Published my Concept to Greenlight. Non-wheeled Vehicles makes them fall off rather sharply, I figure. But I'm not looking to attract more than, say, 2-10k Gamers actually interested in Playing the "SE-LMO" half of the Game. And I'll make no guesses about the potentially interested Gamer Base for the Single Player Version, since it has RPG elements. Rich Characters in an Expansive Universe with an epic Plot Arc and Branching/"Crossecting" Storylines? This power is not to be underestimated... Ever...
Statistical Estimates % of Players Worldwide who regularly play Racing Games: circa 35-55% % of Regular Racing Gamers who prefer wheeled Vehicles: circa 60-75% % of Regular Racing Gamers who like Weapons mixed in: circa 35-65% % of Regular Racing Gamers who might try "Skewed ~ Orig.0": MAYBE 3-7 Percent of Worldwide Gamers. = Not too bad, really, if you Develop your Game for Multiple Languages. Russians and Asians in general take their Gaming very seriously. EVE Online is a prime example, I think.
And if you do at least a few things that have never been done before, you might actually have a shot. And I don't mean being a Launch Title for a new Console, either. I'm talkin' Star Trek here, Boldly Going Where No Game Dev has Gone Before. That's the point, after all. Cloning established/successful Franchises isn't right. Come up with your own Genre re-defining Concept, or it should be Shame on You...
LOL. I was even going to Donate $300+ to an Indiegogo Campaign for a Wipeout clone, just to show how much I Support the Genre. But I scared them off by showing just how serious I was in an E-mail Inquiry. English wasn't their primary Language, though, so they probably couldn't read all I wrote them without getting a headache. Besides, I suppose there is No Excuse for being interested and actually asking Questions and providing Feedback and such.
When are you considered a Game Dev? When you Conceive a Project that you eventually WILL finish, even if it takes 20 years? When the first Programmer joins your Team? When you're 50% done? When you Ship your First Title? When it's an undisputed success in its Genre? When? I'm seriously Asking, because I call myself a Game Designer. I would argue that when you type that first word in your GDD, the one that starts to Define your Concept, if your Destiny is to finish that GDD and go from there all the way to Publishing and beyond, into a Career in the Field of Game Dev, THAT is when you become what you are going to be. And if you don't believe that, How can you even start? We are what we are, even if we aren't yet. "To be!" is the Answer, and "Not to be?" is the Question you should never ask yourself. Or don't even bother starting...
Just get in the Car and Drive! You'll get wherever you're going eventually, because that's Life...
I'm sure you feel better for having said that, but I don't understand what the point of that was.
Yeah, basically a bragging rant. I'm REALLY pi**ed a Game like I've Concepted hasn't been done yet. I'm a nobody, with no training, no definite skills but a few talents, and I'm the one forced to spearhead the Development of this Game. It's maddening and saddening at the same time. Oh well, at least there is a chance I can carve out a nice little Career for myself...
Because when you Reply to it, it really is a General Discussion. You could always try to defend Flashout 3D by explaining to me how it's so much better than Wipeout, and how the niche Futuristic Tactical Combat Racing Genre can't possibly be improved on? But, then, it really would be a "Discussion", Wouldn't it? Heavens, can't have THAT!
I'm
kinda surprised myself, but I'm thinking this sub-Forum just isn't
policed as closely by the Mods. Or, is this America Online? Don't
worry, I'm sure this "Discussion" doesn't have long to live. So stop
Replying so I don't have any excuse to Bump it by Responding to your
Responses. Simple, effective and Logic-based. That's how I roll... How
about you?
There's nothing really wrong with your post, apart from the fact that it is extremely specific and reads as if it is in the middle of a long and protracted interwebz argument between two e-thugs.
All kidding aside, maybe if you took a deep breath, slowed down a little and started from the beginning?
Wipeout_DownNew Hampshire, Northeastern United StatesPosts: 21Member
There's nothing really wrong with your post, apart from the fact that it is extremely specific and reads as if it is in the middle of a long and protracted interwebz argument between two e-thugs.
All kidding aside, maybe if you took a deep breath, slowed down a little and started from the beginning?
TY! I needed that... A little respect and understanding go a long way... I'm not trying to offend anyone or anything. I'm just nervously excited and frustrated...
Beginning? F-Zero was the Beginning. Then came Wipeout. Then they both went, because the Genre has gone a bit stale. End of Story? Not if I have anything to do with it...
Do you expect me to elaborate about my Game Concept? They have a sub-Forum for doing that...
Or were you referring to where my Rant began? That ^^^ WAS the beginning, because that is where I began it. Where it ends, is when the tolerance of you and other Viewers really runs out. Or when "you all" just let this "Discussion" die a natural death...?
Questions Asked. The Ball is in YOUR Court, Shush. LOL. What an amusing coincidence! iCwhtUddThr!
Well I wouldn't have replied if my interest hadn't been piqued by the content of your original message.
We're currently heading into the Beta stages of our Stunt Car Racer/Vroom homage for the OUYA, so anything to do with racing gets our attention.
What I am interested in is in your perceptions of what makes an addictive and test of time racer, (obviously we have our own ideas, but are always interested in what other passionate people think).
For example, (this is assuming some givens, decent graphics, 40+ frames per second, tight controls with a decent physics simulation):
- Is it physics, control, what type of simulation? - Single player campaign, complexity, rewards, achievements? - Multiplayer, LAN, WAN, interactions, (driving, weapons, interactive scenery). - High score tables, replays, leaderboards, statistics.
To respond to a particular point in your original message, don't ever let another developer's product sway you from your original goals and ideals; a good game always stands on it's own no matter how many competitors it has. The thing that the OUYA has going for it above all else, is that it "mostly" gives an even playing ground for the full breadth of development crews, from 2 man part time Indies all the way to AAA publisher backed development houses.
One other really interesting point that you raised that I somehow missed was, "When are you considered a Game Dev?".
- Well the triple A's would say you're only a Game Dev as long as you are publishing million selling copies of your latest Halo vs COD Formula One Football Zombies from Hell.
- An indie crew would probably say when their first title is published.
- I like to think that when you finally have convinced yourself that this is what you want and can do with your life, (i.e. motivation, passion and the learning to back it up); that is what makes you a Game Dev.
Post edited by Shush on
Wipeout_DownNew Hampshire, Northeastern United StatesPosts: 21Member
My Game breaks so much new ground that I can't afford to consider the Questions of Gamer Addiction and the Test of Time. I think any Game with Good Gameplay can be Addictive, and anything that breaks new ground could potentially stand the Test of Time. I do recognize that clones are much safer, however, and a lighter approach to Gameplay - more in favor of Casual Gamers - is almost guaranteed to do much better than a deadly serious approach...
I am diverging on both points. I first conceived a Game that pleases my sense of creativity and need for realistic development based on logic, and now I'm tweaking it to make it more appealing to its potential Player Base. Gamers today are so trained in what to expect from any Game in a specific Genre, that if something they have come to expect isn't there, they feel it is a failing for the Game and its Devs, not a potential virtue, not a bold step away from the stale and traditional...
With regard to the specific points you have inquired about, I'm not going to pretend I understand even half of them clearly. I will reply to those I feel reasonably certain I can/DO understand, however...
For
example, (this is assuming some givens, decent graphics, 40+ frames per
second, tight controls with a decent physics simulation):
- Is it physics, control, what type of simulation? - Single player campaign, complexity, rewards, achievements? - Multiplayer, LAN, WAN, interactions, (driving, weapons, interactive scenery). - High score tables, replays, leaderboards, statistics.
1) I'm aiming for total Physics Realism, relative to the Universe I've created for my Game. And I've conceived an alternative to traditional Controls which will fit the Gameplay elements of my Game better. Not sure if you were asking about anything else here...
2) A Single Player "Career" Mode/Version is an absolute must for my Game, since its in-depth RPG elements cannot be presented in the MMO Version by default. My Game is extremely complex, and doesn't really have "rewards"(as you might think of them) other than earning in-game currency. And it is not an Achievement-based Game. Earning enough to keep Competing and simply Surviving are the Goals in my Game...
3) I've allowed for Multiplayer Local Co-op and LAN/WAN in the SP Version of my Game since it's conception - just because I can't imagine it's Players would tolerate the lack of it - but I originally intended for the Multiplayer aspect of my Game to be unique to its special MMO Version. Regarding the Interactions, the "driving" is tweaked(as I mentioned), there IS an in-depth and deadly serious Tactical Combat element to 50% of the Gameplay(SP+sMMO versions), and the Tracks are Closed Courses, by necessity of the Basic Gameplay for my re-imagining of the Genre.
4) Replays? Yeah, kinda, by necessity of the in-depth Tactical Combat elements in the Gameplay. Leaderboards(aka "highscores" in the Racing Genre, LOL)? Certainly, divided by World Region if my Game is released outside of the U.S. as well. Statistics? Hells yes!(very in-depth, again by necessity of the Tactical Combat elements).
LOL. Don't worry about me and my Game and Flashout 3D. It's a decent Wipeout clone, I'm sure - or OUYA probably wouldn't have gone with it as a Launch Title to begin with(I hope) - but I've come to think of the Wipeout Franchise in a very unfavorable light since I conceived my Game, so I'm really not at all worried about having a competing Title in the same niche Genre...
And you missed the Part about When Game Devs become Officially One with the Force, because I Edited it in... "Update"... I like putting additional stuff into the Origin Post, instead of making Viewers dig for it...
And I can't really say I even fall into that last category. I'll pick up the Knowledge required to turn out a Professional Quality GDD, and so that I can Chat semi-intelligently with "my" Dev Team Members, but I can't afford to get into things like Programming and Modelling(though the latter I'm probably going to pursue anyway, just for kicks). I'm a control/do-everything-I-can-myself freak, so if I sunk 2 years into getting good at Programming in Java(which I WAS getting into) or C#(or whichever Language is key to developing for the Console/Platform I end up targeting) I'd end up trying to design/code everything myself and this Project would take upwards of 4 years instead of something more like the usual 18-24mo Dev Cycle. I've already sat on this Concept for over 4 years, and doubling that time would break my will. So I'm just Designing the Game, helping where I can(I can do more than you might think) and leaving the Programming/Modelling/Music to those who already have the Skills...
My Game breaks so much new ground that I can't afford to consider the Questions of Gamer Addiction and the Test of Time. I think any Game with Good Gameplay can be Addictive, and anything that breaks new ground could potentially stand the Test of Time. I do recognize that clones are much safer, however, and a lighter approach to Gameplay - more in favor of Casual Gamers - is almost guaranteed to do much better than a deadly serious approach...
I am diverging on both points. I first conceived a Game that pleases my sense of creativity and need for realistic development based on logic, and now I'm tweaking it to make it more appealing to its potential Player Base. Gamers today are so trained in what to expect from any Game in a specific Genre, that if something they have come to expect isn't there, they feel it is a failing for the Game and its Devs, not a potential virtue, not a bold step away from the stale and traditional...
This is obviously a riskier approach than making clones or using tried and trusted formulas or recreating remakes of old classics. But in the end, (unless you're a suit who controls a AAA dev house), all that really matters is that you believe in your project and you obviously believe in yours :)
1) I'm aiming for total Physics Realism, relative to the Universe I've created for my Game. And I've conceived an alternative to traditional Controls which will fit the Gameplay elements of my Game better. Not sure if you were asking about anything else here...
This can be extremely tough to get right, not just from a technological viewpoint, (it is much easier these days with the plethora of easily obtainable physics API's), but also from the fine tuning aspect. Not only will you have a body of small but extremely vocal and impossible to please purists, (who will flock to any game at the mere mention of realistic physics), but you'll also have the majority who don't need or want the absolute realism, just the fun.
So how do you define fun? Well I'll guestimate that the total time spent so far on our project for tweaking of the physics, controls, collisions, drifting, aerial maneuvers etc would exceed 35%...all in the name of making it fun.
2) A Single Player "Career" Mode/Version is an absolute must for my Game, since its in-depth RPG elements cannot be presented in the MMO Version by default. My Game is extremely complex, and doesn't really have "rewards"(as you might think of them) other than earning in-game currency. And it is not an Achievement-based Game. Earning enough to keep Competing and simply Surviving are the Goals in my Game...
3) I've allowed for Multiplayer Local Co-op and LAN/WAN in the SP Version of my Game since it's conception - just because I can't imagine it's Players would tolerate the lack of it - but I originally intended for the Multiplayer aspect of my Game to be unique to its special MMO Version. Regarding the Interactions, the "driving" is tweaked(as I mentioned), there IS an in-depth and deadly serious Tactical Combat element to 50% of the Gameplay(SP+sMMO versions), and the Tracks are Closed Courses, by necessity of the Basic Gameplay for my re-imagining of the Genre.
4) Replays? Yeah, kinda, by necessity of the in-depth Tactical Combat elements in the Gameplay. Leaderboards(aka "highscores" in the Racing Genre, LOL)? Certainly, divided by World Region if my Game is released outside of the U.S. as well. Statistics? Hells yes!(very in-depth, again by necessity of the Tactical Combat elements).
You've obviously spent a lot of time thinking and conceiving, as you begin developing you'll have to continually iterate over and prioritise all of your essential ideas into the ones that present the most cohesive, but more importantly doable functionality. I'm not saying that what you're presenting is impossible, just that the realities of resources, time constraints and development hurdles can and will cause changes in plans. Be ready for them :)
And I can't really say I even fall into that last category. I'll pick up the Knowledge required to turn out a Professional Quality GDD, and so that I can Chat semi-intelligently with "my" Dev Team Members, but I can't afford to get into things like Programming and Modelling(though the latter I'm probably going to pursue anyway, just for kicks). I'm a control/do-everything-I-can-myself freak, so if I sunk 2 years into getting good at Programming in Java(which I WAS getting into) or C#(or whichever Language is key to developing for the Console/Platform I end up targeting) I'd end up trying to design/code everything myself and this Project would take upwards of 4 years instead of something more like the usual 18-24mo Dev Cycle. I've already sat on this Concept for over 4 years, and doubling that time would break my will. So I'm just Designing the Game, helping where I can(I can do more than you might think) and leaving the Programming/Modelling/Music to those who already have the Skills...
Designing a game from scratch is fun, but the situation you can get yourself into as a designer who doesn't code or art, is that you can become increasingly frustrated with perceived limitations of your dev tools and or developers. It's best if you pick one and throw in a helping hand, not only will you gain a valuable appreciation for the effort required, but you'll also be adding +1 to your dev team. Lets face it, at some stage your game design is going to have to be ratified and concrete, you'll need something to do then, apart from cracking the whip and handing out donuts.
Good luck.
Post edited by Shush on
Wipeout_DownNew Hampshire, Northeastern United StatesPosts: 21Member
This is obviously a riskier approach than making clones or using tried and trusted formulas or recreating remakes of old classics. But in the end, (unless you're a suit who controls a AAA dev house), all that really matters is that you believe in your project and you obviously believe in yours :)
I couldn't do a clone of a Game in a Genre I'm familiar with. Much easier to accidentally do a clone of a Game I've never been exposed to. I have about half-a-dozen other Game Concepts, and one or two of them is bound to be very similar to something out there already. And it doesn't matter if I believe in my Game, it only matters if the future Members of "my" Dev Team do. Because if I can't find Volunteers to work on Rev Share, then I don't have a Game Dev...
This can be extremely tough to get right, not just from a technological viewpoint, (it is much easier these days with the plethora of easily obtainable physics API's), but also from the fine tuning aspect. Not only will you have a body of small but extremely vocal and impossible to please purists, (who will flock to any game at the mere mention of realistic physics), but you'll also have the majority who don't need or want the absolute realism, just the fun.
So how do you define fun? Well I'll guestimate that the total time spent so far on our project for tweaking of the physics, controls, collisions, drifting, aerial maneuvers etc would exceed 35%...all in the name of making it fun.
I need the Realism. And I did say "aiming". "Close enough" is just going to have to be "good enough" at some point, I know...
"Fun" doesn't concern me for my Game. Ouya Players have Flashout 3D if they want something lighter. My Game has "Permadeath", so when I said "deadly serious", I meant it literally...
Now Customization? THAT my Game will have in Spades...
You've obviously spent a lot of time thinking and conceiving, as you begin developing you'll have to continually iterate over and prioritise all of your essential ideas into the ones that present the most cohesive, but more importantly doable functionality. I'm not saying that what you're presenting is impossible, just that the realities of resources, time constraints and development hurdles can and will cause changes in plans. Be ready for them :)
A "lot of time"? Nah. Logic-based Dev is easy for me. If I've spent more than 50-60 hours on this I'd be surprised. And I'm soooo not looking forward to iterating... I'm going to depend a lot on an experienced Programmer to help me weed out the possibles from the definitely do-ables. A lack of suitable software resources is what concerns me the most. That and MMO Security...
Designing a game from scratch is fun, but the situation you can get yourself into as a designer who doesn't code or art, is that you can become increasingly frustrated with perceived limitations of your dev tools and or developers. It's best if you pick one and throw in a helping hand, not only will you gain a valuable appreciation for the effort required, but you'll also be adding +1 to your dev team. Lets face it, at some stage your game design is going to have to be ratified and concrete, you'll need something to do then, apart from cracking the whip and handing out donuts.
Good luck.
I plan to do Template Encoding to help "my" Programmer(s). And I'll be building all - or most - of the Tracks myself, once the Track Builder is up and running. As to Modelling, there will probably be more work on Textures than the building of actual Models...
I understand fine about the effort that goes into both Programming and Modeling, since I've dabbled in both so recently. And the Programmer(s), Modeller(s) will be working on deadlines they set for themselves, so I won't have overblown expectations with regard to time.
And once the Game Design is finalized, I have my own thing to get into. My Game has RPG elements, and I'll have a ton of Writing to do, between Lyrics for the Soundtrack, Backstories for all of the 48 Playable Characters and their Branching/Crossecting Storylines w/Triggered Events.
This is obviously a riskier approach than making clones or using tried and trusted formulas or recreating remakes of old classics. But in the end, (unless you're a suit who controls a AAA dev house), all that really matters is that you believe in your project and you obviously believe in yours :)
I couldn't do a clone of a Game in a Genre I'm familiar with. Much easier to accidentally do a clone of a Game I've never been exposed to. I have about half-a-dozen other Game Concepts, and one or two of them is bound to be very similar to something out there already. And it doesn't matter if I believe in my Game, it only matters if the future Members of "my" Dev Team do. Because if I can't find Volunteers to work on Rev Share, then I don't have a Game Dev...
This can be extremely tough to get right, not just from a technological viewpoint, (it is much easier these days with the plethora of easily obtainable physics API's), but also from the fine tuning aspect. Not only will you have a body of small but extremely vocal and impossible to please purists, (who will flock to any game at the mere mention of realistic physics), but you'll also have the majority who don't need or want the absolute realism, just the fun.
So how do you define fun? Well I'll guestimate that the total time spent so far on our project for tweaking of the physics, controls, collisions, drifting, aerial maneuvers etc would exceed 35%...all in the name of making it fun.
I need the Realism. And I did say "aiming". "Close enough" is just going to have to be "good enough" at some point, I know...
"Fun" doesn't concern me for my Game. Ouya Players have Flashout 3D if they want something lighter. My Game has "Permadeath", so when I said "deadly serious", I meant it literally...
Now Customization? THAT my Game will have in Spades...
You've obviously spent a lot of time thinking and conceiving, as you begin developing you'll have to continually iterate over and prioritise all of your essential ideas into the ones that present the most cohesive, but more importantly doable functionality. I'm not saying that what you're presenting is impossible, just that the realities of resources, time constraints and development hurdles can and will cause changes in plans. Be ready for them :)
A "lot of time"? Nah. Logic-based Dev is easy for me. If I've spent more than 50-60 hours on this I'd be surprised. And I'm soooo not looking forward to iterating... I'm going to depend a lot on an experienced Programmer to help me weed out the possibles from the definitely do-ables. A lack of suitable software resources is what concerns me the most. That and MMO Security...
Designing a game from scratch is fun, but the situation you can get yourself into as a designer who doesn't code or art, is that you can become increasingly frustrated with perceived limitations of your dev tools and or developers. It's best if you pick one and throw in a helping hand, not only will you gain a valuable appreciation for the effort required, but you'll also be adding +1 to your dev team. Lets face it, at some stage your game design is going to have to be ratified and concrete, you'll need something to do then, apart from cracking the whip and handing out donuts.
Good luck.
I plan to do Template Encoding to help "my" Programmer(s). And I'll be building all - or most - of the Tracks myself, once the Track Builder is up and running. As to Modelling, there will probably be more work on Textures than the building of actual Models...
I understand fine about the effort that goes into both Programming and Modeling, since I've dabbled in both so recently. And the Programmer(s), Modeller(s) will be working on deadlines they set for themselves, so I won't have overblown expectations with regard to time.
And once the Game Design is finalized, I have my own thing to get into. My Game has RPG elements, and I'll have a ton of Writing to do, between Lyrics for the Soundtrack, Backstories for all of the 48 Playable Characters and their Branching/Crossecting Storylines w/Triggered Events.
Thanks! Bon Chance with your Title too!
If your idea is so great, just make the damn game. Have fun dealing with customers that are pissed about buying the game again every time they hit a map glitch.
Btw, you sound bipolar.
Post edited by N3mo on
Wipeout_DownNew Hampshire, Northeastern United StatesPosts: 21Member
If your idea is so great, just make the damn game. Have fun dealing with customers that are pissed about buying the game again every time they hit a map glitch.
Btw, you sound bipolar.
I AM 'just making the d@mn game'... Aren't you just a little ray of Sunshine? Thank you so much for the valuable insight... Oh, wait, What insight?
I looked up bipolar. I've never had anyone suggest that before and since I have an Aunt who had the chemically caused version, I was naturally concerned - being on occasion a hypochondriac. But I only get a little depressed during the Winters here like "normal" people, so that flies out the window. I don't have anything to be depressed about - since I lead such a simple, sheltered life - so I very rarely am. Besides, this Project is also to give me something to do through the Winter, which is the off-season for the sort of work I do...
If you were actually concerned, Thanks. If you were just being cute, "skew" you, and have a Nice Day.
What I would say is that you've gotta master the craft, figure out what you can do technically and how to do it, before you can master the art and make your dream game. And it's a lot easier to get somewhere if you learn to either code or make graphics so you're not dependent on paying others to do everything for you. Everyone has great ideas, it's the execution that's key.
What's logic-based dev?
Wipeout_DownNew Hampshire, Northeastern United StatesPosts: 21Member
What I would say is that you've gotta master the craft, figure out what you can do technically and how to do it, before you can master the art and make your dream game. And it's a lot easier to get somewhere if you learn to either code or make graphics so you're not dependent on paying others to do everything for you. Everyone has great ideas, it's the execution that's key.
What's logic-based dev?
I think you need to pick a Console/OS, Engine and whatnot first, Right? What is technically possible depends on those aspects, I think...
I prefer to Pay-as-Go. Publishers do it that way - along with full contractual agreements. Rev Share is a good test too. Who wants Team Members who don't believe in the Project enough to figure Rev Share is worth it?
"Everyone has great ideas"? History disproves that outright...
"Logic-based Dev" is just that. Using your head instead of looking to what may have been done before. That's all I've got, since I don't know the Rules. Build, Dream, Play, Troubleshoot, Solve, Go!
I think he means not being bounded by what has come before; you know the school of thinking that learning traditional academia imposes rules, limits and boundaries on the thinking process, especially when it comes to creativity.
Personally I mostly don't agree with this, when I started with electronics and computers I was 13 , it was the late 70's and you basically built your own single board computers from scratch. I was flying by the seat of my pants, I had no rules, (apart from the rule of not letting the magic blue smoke out of silicon), or preconceived ideas and I produced some great stuff.
But when I finally got to University it was such an eye-opener, being able to formalise theories and gain a solid understanding of first principles and the mathematics behind the things that I loved working with sent me to an absoloutely new level.
Wipeout_DownNew Hampshire, Northeastern United StatesPosts: 21Member
"Logic-based Dev" is just that. Using your head instead of looking to what may have been done before.
Seriously though.... how can development NOT involve using your head? So isn't that just regular dev, but with a new fancy name?
My profuse apologies! I don't know the proper terms for a lot of things, so I make my own up all the time. That is a strength for a creative Writer...
For example, I just learned within the last week or so that what I have been referring to as "Dead IS DEAD" is actually known as "Permadeath" in the Biz. You learn something new every day...
Wipeout_DownNew Hampshire, Northeastern United StatesPosts: 21Member
But when I finally got to University it was such an eye-opener, being able to formalise theories and gain a solid understanding of first principles and the mathematics behind the things that I loved working with sent me to an absoloutely new level.
I guess this is where I start kicking myself. 8-9 years ago I asked my Father if he would send me to College. He said "Yes". I said I was just curious... Now I know what I should have gone and Majored in. Scary to think where I could be now...
Well, not everyone has great ideas, but everyone has ideas they think are great. ;) And it's not like all the people working in the game industry making war shooters don't have more original ideas, the problem is that the more original ideas don't get funded because they're risky investments.
The way I look at it, and the way I think a lot of people look at it, making graphics and coding is hard work, while deciding what to make is a privilege. A lot of people in the industry start out just making the assets for games based on what they're told to make, until eventually they can work they're way up the corporate ladder to become game designers that actually have a say in what game to make.
Anyway I'm curious, what would you major in? If you ask me you can learn it all on your own on the internet. :)
Wipeout_DownNew Hampshire, Northeastern United StatesPosts: 21Member
Anyway I'm curious, what would you major in? If you ask me you can learn it all on your own on the internet. :)
Honestly, probably would choose Graphic Design, since I have a bit of a knack for drawing. Also, it's a bit more inspiring than straight-up Coding, and it can stand alone, if you want to go the way of Book/Comic/Graphic Novel Illustration instead of into the realm of 3D Modelling/Rendering. But I totally agree with you, the art of "self-teaching" via the Internet is here and is just as useful as actually going somewhere to get special training. If you aren't as dumb as a post to begin with, that is...
Wipeout_Down
New Hampshire, Northeastern United StatesPosts: 21Member
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Because when you Reply to it, it really is a General Discussion. You could always try to defend Flashout 3D by explaining to me how it's so much better than Wipeout, and how the niche Futuristic Tactical Combat Racing Genre can't possibly be improved on? But, then, it really would be a "Discussion", Wouldn't it? Heavens, can't have THAT!
I'm kinda surprised myself, but I'm thinking this sub-Forum just isn't policed as closely by the Mods. Or, is this America Online? Don't worry, I'm sure this "Discussion" doesn't have long to live. So stop Replying so I don't have any excuse to Bump it by Responding to your Responses. Simple, effective and Logic-based. That's how I roll... How about you?
All kidding aside, maybe if you took a deep breath, slowed down a little and started from the beginning?
TY! I needed that... A little respect and understanding go a long way... I'm not trying to offend anyone or anything. I'm just nervously excited and frustrated...
Beginning? F-Zero was the Beginning. Then came Wipeout. Then they both went, because the Genre has gone a bit stale. End of Story? Not if I have anything to do with it...
Do you expect me to elaborate about my Game Concept? They have a sub-Forum for doing that...
Or were you referring to where my Rant began? That ^^^ WAS the beginning, because that is where I began it. Where it ends, is when the tolerance of you and other Viewers really runs out. Or when "you all" just let this "Discussion" die a natural death...?
Questions Asked. The Ball is in YOUR Court, Shush. LOL. What an amusing coincidence! iCwhtUddThr!
We're currently heading into the Beta stages of our Stunt Car Racer/Vroom homage for the OUYA, so anything to do with racing gets our attention.
What I am interested in is in your perceptions of what makes an addictive and test of time racer, (obviously we have our own ideas, but are always interested in what other passionate people think).
For example, (this is assuming some givens, decent graphics, 40+ frames per second, tight controls with a decent physics simulation):
- Is it physics, control, what type of simulation?
- Single player campaign, complexity, rewards, achievements?
- Multiplayer, LAN, WAN, interactions, (driving, weapons, interactive scenery).
- High score tables, replays, leaderboards, statistics.
To respond to a particular point in your original message, don't ever let another developer's product sway you from your original goals and ideals; a good game always stands on it's own no matter how many competitors it has. The thing that the OUYA has going for it above all else, is that it "mostly" gives an even playing ground for the full breadth of development crews, from 2 man part time Indies all the way to AAA publisher backed development houses.
One other really interesting point that you raised that I somehow missed was, "When are you considered a Game Dev?".
- Well the triple A's would say you're only a Game Dev as long as you are publishing million selling copies of your latest Halo vs COD Formula One Football Zombies from Hell.
- An indie crew would probably say when their first title is published.
- I like to think that when you finally have convinced yourself that this is what you want and can do with your life, (i.e. motivation, passion and the learning to back it up); that is what makes you a Game Dev.
I am diverging on both points. I first conceived a Game that pleases my sense of creativity and need for realistic development based on logic, and now I'm tweaking it to make it more appealing to its potential Player Base. Gamers today are so trained in what to expect from any Game in a specific Genre, that if something they have come to expect isn't there, they feel it is a failing for the Game and its Devs, not a potential virtue, not a bold step away from the stale and traditional...
With regard to the specific points you have inquired about, I'm not going to pretend I understand even half of them clearly. I will reply to those I feel reasonably certain I can/DO understand, however...
1) I'm aiming for total Physics Realism, relative to the Universe I've created for my Game. And I've conceived an alternative to traditional Controls which will fit the Gameplay elements of my Game better. Not sure if you were asking about anything else here...
2) A Single Player "Career" Mode/Version is an absolute must for my Game, since its in-depth RPG elements cannot be presented in the MMO Version by default. My Game is extremely complex, and doesn't really have "rewards"(as you might think of them) other than earning in-game currency. And it is not an Achievement-based Game. Earning enough to keep Competing and simply Surviving are the Goals in my Game...
3) I've allowed for Multiplayer Local Co-op and LAN/WAN in the SP Version of my Game since it's conception - just because I can't imagine it's Players would tolerate the lack of it - but I originally intended for the Multiplayer aspect of my Game to be unique to its special MMO Version.
Regarding the Interactions, the "driving" is tweaked(as I mentioned), there IS an in-depth and deadly serious Tactical Combat element to 50% of the Gameplay(SP+sMMO versions), and the Tracks are Closed Courses, by necessity of the Basic Gameplay for my re-imagining of the Genre.
4) Replays? Yeah, kinda, by necessity of the in-depth Tactical Combat elements in the Gameplay. Leaderboards(aka "highscores" in the Racing Genre, LOL)? Certainly, divided by World Region if my Game is released outside of the U.S. as well. Statistics? Hells yes!(very in-depth, again by necessity of the Tactical Combat elements).
LOL. Don't worry about me and my Game and Flashout 3D. It's a decent Wipeout clone, I'm sure - or OUYA probably wouldn't have gone with it as a Launch Title to begin with(I hope) - but I've come to think of the Wipeout Franchise in a very unfavorable light since I conceived my Game, so I'm really not at all worried about having a competing Title in the same niche Genre...
And you missed the Part about When Game Devs become Officially One with the Force, because I Edited it in... "Update"... I like putting additional stuff into the Origin Post, instead of making Viewers dig for it...
And I can't really say I even fall into that last category. I'll pick up the Knowledge required to turn out a Professional Quality GDD, and so that I can Chat semi-intelligently with "my" Dev Team Members, but I can't afford to get into things like Programming and Modelling(though the latter I'm probably going to pursue anyway, just for kicks). I'm a control/do-everything-I-can-myself freak, so if I sunk 2 years into getting good at Programming in Java(which I WAS getting into) or C#(or whichever Language is key to developing for the Console/Platform I end up targeting) I'd end up trying to design/code everything myself and this Project would take upwards of 4 years instead of something more like the usual 18-24mo Dev Cycle. I've already sat on this Concept for over 4 years, and doubling that time would break my will. So I'm just Designing the Game, helping where I can(I can do more than you might think) and leaving the Programming/Modelling/Music to those who already have the Skills...
This can be extremely tough to get right, not just from a technological viewpoint, (it is much easier these days with the plethora of easily obtainable physics API's), but also from the fine tuning aspect. Not only will you have a body of small but extremely vocal and impossible to please purists, (who will flock to any game at the mere mention of realistic physics), but you'll also have the majority who don't need or want the absolute realism, just the fun.
So how do you define fun? Well I'll guestimate that the total time spent so far on our project for tweaking of the physics, controls, collisions, drifting, aerial maneuvers etc would exceed 35%...all in the name of making it fun.
You've obviously spent a lot of time thinking and conceiving, as you begin developing you'll have to continually iterate over and prioritise all of your essential ideas into the ones that present the most cohesive, but more importantly doable functionality. I'm not saying that what you're presenting is impossible, just that the realities of resources, time constraints and development hurdles can and will cause changes in plans. Be ready for them :)
Designing a game from scratch is fun, but the situation you can get yourself into as a designer who doesn't code or art, is that you can become increasingly frustrated with perceived limitations of your dev tools and or developers. It's best if you pick one and throw in a helping hand, not only will you gain a valuable appreciation for the effort required, but you'll also be adding +1 to your dev team. Lets face it, at some stage your game design is going to have to be ratified and concrete, you'll need something to do then, apart from cracking the whip and handing out donuts.
Good luck.
I need the Realism. And I did say "aiming". "Close enough" is just going to have to be "good enough" at some point, I know...
"Fun" doesn't concern me for my Game. Ouya Players have Flashout 3D if they want something lighter. My Game has "Permadeath", so when I said "deadly serious", I meant it literally...
Now Customization? THAT my Game will have in Spades...
A "lot of time"? Nah. Logic-based Dev is easy for me. If I've spent more than 50-60 hours on this I'd be surprised. And I'm soooo not looking forward to iterating... I'm going to depend a lot on an experienced Programmer to help me weed out the possibles from the definitely do-ables. A lack of suitable software resources is what concerns me the most. That and MMO Security...
I plan to do Template Encoding to help "my" Programmer(s). And I'll be building all - or most - of the Tracks myself, once the Track Builder is up and running. As to Modelling, there will probably be more work on Textures than the building of actual Models...
I understand fine about the effort that goes into both Programming and Modeling, since I've dabbled in both so recently. And the Programmer(s), Modeller(s) will be working on deadlines they set for themselves, so I won't have overblown expectations with regard to time.
And once the Game Design is finalized, I have my own thing to get into. My Game has RPG elements, and I'll have a ton of Writing to do, between Lyrics for the Soundtrack, Backstories for all of the 48 Playable Characters and their Branching/Crossecting Storylines w/Triggered Events.
Thanks! Bon Chance with your Title too!
Btw, you sound bipolar.
I looked up bipolar. I've never had anyone suggest that before and since I have an Aunt who had the chemically caused version, I was naturally concerned - being on occasion a hypochondriac. But I only get a little depressed during the Winters here like "normal" people, so that flies out the window. I don't have anything to be depressed about - since I lead such a simple, sheltered life - so I very rarely am. Besides, this Project is also to give me something to do through the Winter, which is the off-season for the sort of work I do...
If you were actually concerned, Thanks. If you were just being cute, "skew" you, and have a Nice Day.
I think you need to pick a Console/OS, Engine and whatnot first, Right? What is technically possible depends on those aspects, I think...
I prefer to Pay-as-Go. Publishers do it that way - along with full contractual agreements. Rev Share is a good test too. Who wants Team Members who don't believe in the Project enough to figure Rev Share is worth it?
"Everyone has great ideas"? History disproves that outright...
"Logic-based Dev" is just that. Using your head instead of looking to what may have been done before. That's all I've got, since I don't know the Rules. Build, Dream, Play, Troubleshoot, Solve, Go!
Seriously though.... how can development NOT involve using your head? So isn't that just regular dev, but with a new fancy name?
Personally I mostly don't agree with this, when I started with electronics and computers I was 13 , it was the late 70's and you basically built your own single board computers from scratch. I was flying by the seat of my pants, I had no rules, (apart from the rule of not letting the magic blue smoke out of silicon), or preconceived ideas and I produced some great stuff.
But when I finally got to University it was such an eye-opener, being able to formalise theories and gain a solid understanding of first principles and the mathematics behind the things that I loved working with sent me to an absoloutely new level.
For example, I just learned within the last week or so that what I have been referring to as "Dead IS DEAD" is actually known as "Permadeath" in the Biz. You learn something new every day...