I saw that the Ouya uses the same processor as the Asus Transformer Prime and Google Nexus 7. Hypothetically, could someone follow these instructions:
http://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Asus_Transformer_Primehttps://wiki.ubuntu.com/ARM/TabletListhttps://wiki.ubuntu.com/Nexus7/Installation
And then get Gentoo or Ubuntu instead of Android working on the Ouya? Perhaps even further would be the development of a custom built alternative OS for Ouya, based on Gentoo or Ubuntu with a store and everything. Reason I am thinking of this is because the market will soon be flooded with Android consoles. This could be a chance to break away from Android and possibly do more.
Other options would be Arch Linux, Mageia and many more.
A neat experiment would be to see if someone could install one of the distros of Linux and then replicate the Ouya OS just to show it could be done. Even though Discover would have no games in it nor would Play, you would be able to highlight the potential as opposed to whatever limitations Android has.
Or maybe its just too radical a concept and would never be embraced. I guess it was just an idea anyways. I mean the bootloader is locked and there is no way to boot into the boot loader UI to unlock it. Holding the power button down on the Ouya upon turn on does not do anything.
It would be a good idea to first clarify that these limitations do exist and what those limitations might be.
A custom-built alternative OS for OUYA based on Gentoo or Ubuntu with a store and everything? A store would require a sizeable audience to be successful. A custom-built alternative OS for the OUYA would have a very small target audience because one of the big selling points of the OUYA is it being based on Android and having the OUYA Store that caters for the 99.9% who won't be using a custom-built OS.
True many people love Android but many people out there also love Ubuntu and Gentoo and know how to program games and apps for them. I mean yes it would have a small target audience but it would not necessarily be about having a large user base. It would just be about providing people with an alternative whether they want it or not. Its about expanding options. Even if a custom store only has 2 games in it that aren't Android games, its still a second option even if it does not seem like a fantastic one for that time being. I would even say no store at all would be fine at first and people can just side load everything they think they may need that is a Deb file or whatever. Then if it proves a bit more and more people are using it then a Software Center or Store could be added. Think about PCs with Windows and Linux. In the past nobody wanted to really use Linux because it couldn't do everything Windows did (to some extent there are still loads upon loads more Windows PC users than Linux) but still the companies came along and gave everyone alternatives anyways despite not having a gigantic following. Now many more people use Linux on their PCs than in the past. This is basically just a small experimental project per say that a couple of people who want to try something other than the stock Ouya OS could use.
Having said that the OS would not be widely embraced at all because it is very against the grain as far as Ouya is concerned. But again the point is not to be embraced but to expand options. Then build upon whats already there little by little.
True many people love Android but many people out there also love Ubuntu and Gentoo and know how to program games and apps for them
I think you might be overestimating with that statement, to an exponentially comical degree. Especially if you're considering developing software for a low-power ARM-based device.
I don't mean to tease you, and do appreciate that you are qualifying your statements, but other than for your own edification, what would be the point? What extra possibilities would be enabled? I mean, Android is already pretty much a Linux distribution, designed for ARM, and you can programs games for it in any language under the sun, and documentation is abundant and the developer community is open and innovative. What more could you want?
It's one thing to say "let's create more options," but you aren't actually suggesting that. OUYA is an option. Xbox is another. GameStick is one more. What you're talking about is options within options within options, opening up alternate possibilities just because you don't want to settle on something, or because you want to be able to change your mind, which misses the point of having choices in the first place.
I mean, there are a lot of use-cases for dual-booting a PC, but not for creating an alternate (competing?), at best identically-capable OS for a games console, with games that are no different in capabilities from each other but are incompatible with the other OS. I mean, if you're going to do that, you should just build a separate console.
Again, I'm granting you a best case scenario in the above analysis. In truth, I don't see any benefit whatsoever for developers, gamers, OUYA, or anyone else. As a hobby project, it could be really neat, but thinking of it as anything more is baffling to me.
I also think you are seriously underestimating the engineering challenge (hardware and software) you've laid out for yourself. I mean, if you want to create a new, Linux-based console for an ARM-processor, and use your OUYA as prototype hardware, go ahead and give it a whirl. It will probably be fun and if you manage to get something working, really impressive, but at that point, it's not an OUYA, it's something else.
And lastly, I challenge your basic premise. I mean, you don't have to throw away Android in order to be different from "other Android consoles." Both XboxOne and PS4 are based on x86, and all three major next-gen consoles have AMD-built GPUs in them. There is still plenty of room for differentiation.
Oh I would never use ARM if I was building a game console. I would likely go with a 64 bit processor with a 64 bit Linux OS. But then I already have that on my PC along with Steam for Ubuntu. Ouya's hardware for TV consoles can't really compete with AMD 6 core processors and NVIDIA GEForce HD Graphics Cards. Thats really a tall order. Ouya is low powered which is why you don't get the same types of games you would on a PS3 such as Little Big Planet or Twisted Metal. If someone wanted an open console which has the horsepower of a PS3 than yes I agree. Cobble together some PC hardware, figure out a way to hide all the PC post screens and tests behind a cool logo, then as far as the OS if you really want it custom, just install a Linux distro where there is no DE and just start off with plain old X and build the Console OS from the ground up. Of course install all drivers in the terminal using apt-get, pacman or some other install command along with the driver packages. Build some type of cool controller to go with it and figure out how the OS will work with it. Etc etc
Anything you do would be alot of work. You're right. Especially my idea above.
I guess your point is just use Ouya as it is and if you don't like it as is, get rid of it.
Maybe Ouya is just not the console for me then. I didn't plan on buying a static box. I could have kept my PS3 if I just wanted something to play random games on that you couldn't modify or mess with. That wasn't why I bought the Ouya.
And if it seems laughable that thats the only reason to buy an Ouya is to develop and play cheesy tablet games that get boring after a while then why did I bother? What you are basically telling me is that this console has no more potential than my IPad does. There was really no point for me to pledge money then according to your logic. Because by that theres really no difference in going out and buying an Android tablet, getting a control pad accessory for it, hooking the tablet up to the TV VIA HDMI and thats it. Whats the advantage of Ouya then?
Well what is the advantage of the Ouya is? It's a marketing pitch. I know that a lot of people feel that the Ouya is a piece of hardware, and often treat the hardware as the Ouya. But the Ouya is not the hardware. Ouya a marketing consumer platform. Boxer8 isn't selling hardware(technically it is with) it's selling the idea of a consolidated, game focused Android platform. A place where Ouya can list a series of Android exclusive games.
Boxer8 is trying to sell the platform by focusing the on the idea that all games are free to try, it's open to indie developers, the device is cheap because there is no TouchScreen or non required device bits.
The hardware is secondary, and Uhrman has over prior interviews given enough hints that Ouya doesn't even need a console to exist. This is a clear statement that Boxer8 wants to eventually push the Ouya platform onto TV's OS and other devices.
So what is the advantage of the Ouya, NOT THE HARDWARE. That is why there is no push for power, that's why it's already no running AMD 2 to 6 core CPU's. It doesn't have 6gb of ram.. so on etc.
Is the Ouya succeeding, or will succeed. I can't say. So yes, you can buy any Android device, USB controller, plug it into your TV and your good to go. For your needs, I don't see a difference.
Please feel free to install Linux on the Ouya hardware. I think it would be nifty :) heck if you can get it to dual boot that would be fantastic. I might even consider it as i wont' be violated my usage of the Ouya :) However, this is not the forum to find that support. I would suggest linux focused forums by people who love installnig linux on everything :) This is a Ouya developer forum so the devs here about being focus on the plarform creation. From that perspective installing linux is a backwards endouvor.
You're completely free to muck with your OUYA as much as you'd like, hardware and software, that's part of the charm of the thing, but it's not exactly a Raspberry Pi, and it will never be as powerful as the best 64-bit PCs. But you knew that already, right?
But OUYA is not just a console, it's also a platform. You must have known that going in, too, right? What use is it to complain about it now?
"the only reason to buy an Ouya is to develop and play cheesy tablet games that get boring after a while then why did I bother?"
If you have that kind of snotty attitude, then indeed, why did you bother? Clear the way for people who won't turn their noses up at indie developers.
I don't want to be mean, but it's clear you have no idea what you're talking about. Tegra3 isn't a powerhouse, but it's nothing to sneeze at, and people are already creating amazing, original, console-style games for OUYA. Retro platformers with cute low-res graphics *and* graphically intense 3D shooters. If you don't want to be part of that party, that cool, you're free to do your own thing.
Well first off I don't turn my nose up at ALL indie devs but some could be a little more creative. Games like Saturday Morning RPG are pretty great but games like that were few and far between. As far as the encouragement to get rid of my Ouya and not support it thanks cause I have decided to do just that. As far as missing the party I guess I will just have to find a party to go to where my views and opinions are respected and taken into consideration. I was a big believer in this project. I wanted it to work out and for the Ouya to make it. But now It just isn't right for me. I believe in indie gaming, just not in Ouya. Sorry.
So which is it? Are most OUYA devs uncreative, or is Android not the right platform for OUYA? Which is the thing responsible for OUYA not meeting your high standards?
As for your opinion not being respected, everyone in this thread has encouraged you to try out your idea, and wished you the best with it, but at a certain point, your opinion starts to read as: "Android sucks, ARM sucks, OUYA devs suck, everything sucks!" I mean, your thread title is "Getting rid of Android on the OUYA," what did you expect us to think?
You say you believe in Indie development, but you've shown that you don't even understand what it is. A platform where anyone can publish their game is going to have a good share of clunkers (see: XNA, iOS App Store, etc.), but the other side of that coin is the amazing potential for incredible, unique experiences. You can't have one without the other, and I don't know what makes you think that an Ubuntu/Linux environment, with a less active community and fewer active frameworks, would be any different.
Again, you're free and encouraged to use (and abuse) your OUYA however you want. Put Ubuntu or some other flavor of Linux on it, develop an alternate OS and an app store if you really want to, and of course, create some cool games and apps!
Nobody's stopping you, and when people (like me) say it's a bad idea, feel free to ignore it and prove us wrong. But don't you dare just return your OUYA to the store and try to claim that it wasn't worthy of your attention and wisened beneficence. If you give up on it, then *you* gave up. It didn't fail you.
You misunderstand then. Lets get to the dev part first. The whole reason I backed the Ouya and even got rid of my PS3 was because I was sick of the redundancy of games with the big publishers. Games like Resident Evil which were once cool became stale and I am not a fan of 80 Call of Duty and Halo games where each game is almost just like the last one you played. Now getting to Ouya as far as the games go yes Ouya has some unique games which you could tell the devs put time and effort into and they were great to play. Deep Dungeons, Saturday Morning RPG, Universe Alpha, and Wizorb. But then going to browse around there were many games such as Crazy Cat Lady, Save the Puppies, and loads upon loads of others where you could play it for a half an hour (just like any IPad game) and feel as though the novelty wore off quickier than it took you to download it. Its different playing a game like that in a doctors office while waiting for your appointment but playing those games at home....no thanks. ALL Ouya devs don't "suck" but some really need to put more thought, creativity and originality into their games. Stop looking at how every other IPad and Android game is and do something new.
As far as getting rid of Android, I don't think its such a bad thing to allow another OS onto the console. Obviously if you've read up on SteamBox you can see that Gabe Newell in an interview stated even though its coming with Valve's own Linux Distribution for Steam, you can still have the option of wiping it out and installng any OS you want. Even Windows. With the bootloader locked, it seems more or less that Ouya Team wanted to if at all possible confine everyone to Ouya OS and not give any other options. This is where the misconceptions happen. Ouya's definition of having an "open console" is having a console with an open source operating system and the entire device and all functions are not created to be open. By rooting they mean you have limited su access to the console not being able to freely jailbreak root it very easily. So in essence ok yes its my own fault for pledging money on the console without getting any specifics and details like that. However, yes this is why I have "given up" and gotten rid of my console. For the same reason you buy a pair of shoes that look comfortable in the store but when you get them home they give you blisters all over your feet. Now some people may love the shoes and thats ok. But if they aren't right for you than you can find another pair. This is what has happened with me with Ouya. I will still support the indie devs, give ideas, and help where I can. I will continue to guide people who are having difficulty with the Ouya to people who can give them answers. But as for being on board I will wait to see what the future brings for Ouya. Mostly because right now it just seems like its not meeting my needs. Still that doesn't mean I will always feel this way. So I am leaving the door open to see if the console can offer me more in the future.
That doesn't make any sense. There's nothing mutually exclusive about those two things. Do you get rid of your car when you buy a new bike, too?
"some really need to put more thought, creativity and originality into their games."
You're still being a bit insulting in your descriptions, and underrating the average quality level, but regardless, what you are describing is indie development on an open platform. What did you expect?
"I am leaving the door open"
That's good, but for what exactly?
I mean, you don't want a platform that supports big publishers and their monotonous corporate AAA blockbusters, but you also can't spend 5 minutes in a truly indie app store without insulting the available selection as low-rent and amateurish. You talk about Linux, but how does that solve any of your problems?
The strangest thing is that you are letting the bad games (which you don't have to play) overrule the good ones. Are the "android ports" of which you speak so bad that they completely ruin the good games you cited earlier? You really want to toss out your OUYA because the number of awesome games that you really admire is "only" four? Hell, that's more than you can expect from most console launches (at 3-5 times the price, no less!).
Whatever. I don't understand what your problem is exactly. I understand your shoe analogy but you haven't really explained how it applies here.
"So in essence ok yes its my own fault for pledging money on the console without getting any specifics and details like that."
If the car has extremely bad gas mileage and the bike "seems" like it will get me from point A to point B more cost effective and the ride is smoother than yeah. Depends on how crappy one sees the car and how nice one sees the bike.
If you or anyone else takes that as insulting its misinterpreted. Mostly because I have always praised people for making any kinds of games at all away from the big 3 and helping to get the little guy recognized. But constructive criticism basically is make some unique changes in your game rather than "collect all the items and you should get a 3 star accomplishment" type game. So in saying try for more original features and use some creative elements to keep people playing I don't feel thats an insult, its mean't to be helpful. If you took it the wrong way or anyone else did then its up to you (assuming you care) to ask me to explain.
Linux would solve a lot of problems actually. For one out of the box USB support that you don't have to tweak to get like with Ouya OS. Secondly, not having to shell out big bucks for Unity for development purposes. Things like coding in perl, python, etc would be easier. Third Linux can be robust or can be minimal depending in what you want. Ouya OS doesn't have the capabilities for that. You can't choose a window manager, de, or other things like you could on Linux. Even if you could do this on Ouya Os theres more risk of bricking your console and due to the locked bootloader, not being able to come back from that.
Ok yeah I admitted I didn't get all the specifics I wanted to when I pledged money. But now when I bring up the fact the bootloader can't be unlocked I get back from devs basically that I am putting words in Boxer8/Ouya Inc's mouths and nobody ever said you couldn't wipe out Ouya OS and install a new OS. When I bring up about the AES 128 bit key the response I get is basically the same thing "Even if you can't install another OS right now because of that, nobody on The Ouya staff ever said you couldn't or that they wouldn't provide their users with a method to do so". But sometimes things don't have to be said. You imply it by locking it down. Why lock it down then if they are just going to give us a way to unlock it? That makes no sense at all.
pietaster
Posts: 69Member
Comments
I think you might be overestimating with that statement, to an exponentially comical degree. Especially if you're considering developing software for a low-power ARM-based device.
I don't mean to tease you, and do appreciate that you are qualifying your statements, but other than for your own edification, what would be the point? What extra possibilities would be enabled? I mean, Android is already pretty much a Linux distribution, designed for ARM, and you can programs games for it in any language under the sun, and documentation is abundant and the developer community is open and innovative. What more could you want?
It's one thing to say "let's create more options," but you aren't actually suggesting that. OUYA is an option. Xbox is another. GameStick is one more. What you're talking about is options within options within options, opening up alternate possibilities just because you don't want to settle on something, or because you want to be able to change your mind, which misses the point of having choices in the first place.
I mean, there are a lot of use-cases for dual-booting a PC, but not for creating an alternate (competing?), at best identically-capable OS for a games console, with games that are no different in capabilities from each other but are incompatible with the other OS. I mean, if you're going to do that, you should just build a separate console.
Again, I'm granting you a best case scenario in the above analysis. In truth, I don't see any benefit whatsoever for developers, gamers, OUYA, or anyone else. As a hobby project, it could be really neat, but thinking of it as anything more is baffling to me.
I also think you are seriously underestimating the engineering challenge (hardware and software) you've laid out for yourself. I mean, if you want to create a new, Linux-based console for an ARM-processor, and use your OUYA as prototype hardware, go ahead and give it a whirl. It will probably be fun and if you manage to get something working, really impressive, but at that point, it's not an OUYA, it's something else.
And lastly, I challenge your basic premise. I mean, you don't have to throw away Android in order to be different from "other Android consoles." Both XboxOne and PS4 are based on x86, and all three major next-gen consoles have AMD-built GPUs in them. There is still plenty of room for differentiation.
You're completely free to muck with your OUYA as much as you'd like, hardware and software, that's part of the charm of the thing, but it's not exactly a Raspberry Pi, and it will never be as powerful as the best 64-bit PCs. But you knew that already, right?
But OUYA is not just a console, it's also a platform. You must have known that going in, too, right? What use is it to complain about it now?
"the only reason to buy an Ouya is to develop and play cheesy tablet games that get boring after a while then why did I bother?"
If you have that kind of snotty attitude, then indeed, why did you bother? Clear the way for people who won't turn their noses up at indie developers.
I don't want to be mean, but it's clear you have no idea what you're talking about. Tegra3 isn't a powerhouse, but it's nothing to sneeze at, and people are already creating amazing, original, console-style games for OUYA. Retro platformers with cute low-res graphics *and* graphically intense 3D shooters. If you don't want to be part of that party, that cool, you're free to do your own thing.
Encouraged, even.
As for your opinion not being respected, everyone in this thread has encouraged you to try out your idea, and wished you the best with it, but at a certain point, your opinion starts to read as: "Android sucks, ARM sucks, OUYA devs suck, everything sucks!" I mean, your thread title is "Getting rid of Android on the OUYA," what did you expect us to think?
You say you believe in Indie development, but you've shown that you don't even understand what it is. A platform where anyone can publish their game is going to have a good share of clunkers (see: XNA, iOS App Store, etc.), but the other side of that coin is the amazing potential for incredible, unique experiences. You can't have one without the other, and I don't know what makes you think that an Ubuntu/Linux environment, with a less active community and fewer active frameworks, would be any different.
Again, you're free and encouraged to use (and abuse) your OUYA however you want. Put Ubuntu or some other flavor of Linux on it, develop an alternate OS and an app store if you really want to, and of course, create some cool games and apps!
Nobody's stopping you, and when people (like me) say it's a bad idea, feel free to ignore it and prove us wrong. But don't you dare just return your OUYA to the store and try to claim that it wasn't worthy of your attention and wisened beneficence. If you give up on it, then *you* gave up. It didn't fail you.
As far as getting rid of Android, I don't think its such a bad thing to allow another OS onto the console. Obviously if you've read up on SteamBox you can see that Gabe Newell in an interview stated even though its coming with Valve's own Linux Distribution for Steam, you can still have the option of wiping it out and installng any OS you want. Even Windows. With the bootloader locked, it seems more or less that Ouya Team wanted to if at all possible confine everyone to Ouya OS and not give any other options. This is where the misconceptions happen. Ouya's definition of having an "open console" is having a console with an open source operating system and the entire device and all functions are not created to be open. By rooting they mean you have limited su access to the console not being able to freely jailbreak root it very easily. So in essence ok yes its my own fault for pledging money on the console without getting any specifics and details like that. However, yes this is why I have "given up" and gotten rid of my console. For the same reason you buy a pair of shoes that look comfortable in the store but when you get them home they give you blisters all over your feet. Now some people may love the shoes and thats ok. But if they aren't right for you than you can find another pair. This is what has happened with me with Ouya. I will still support the indie devs, give ideas, and help where I can. I will continue to guide people who are having difficulty with the Ouya to people who can give them answers. But as for being on board I will wait to see what the future brings for Ouya. Mostly because right now it just seems like its not meeting my needs. Still that doesn't mean I will always feel this way. So I am leaving the door open to see if the console can offer me more in the future.
That doesn't make any sense. There's nothing mutually exclusive about those two things. Do you get rid of your car when you buy a new bike, too?
"some really need to put more thought, creativity and originality into their games."
You're still being a bit insulting in your descriptions, and underrating the average quality level, but regardless, what you are describing is indie development on an open platform. What did you expect?
"I am leaving the door open"
That's good, but for what exactly?
I mean, you don't want a platform that supports big publishers and their monotonous corporate AAA blockbusters, but you also can't spend 5 minutes in a truly indie app store without insulting the available selection as low-rent and amateurish. You talk about Linux, but how does that solve any of your problems?
The strangest thing is that you are letting the bad games (which you don't have to play) overrule the good ones. Are the "android ports" of which you speak so bad that they completely ruin the good games you cited earlier? You really want to toss out your OUYA because the number of awesome games that you really admire is "only" four? Hell, that's more than you can expect from most console launches (at 3-5 times the price, no less!).
Whatever. I don't understand what your problem is exactly. I understand your shoe analogy but you haven't really explained how it applies here.
"So in essence ok yes its my own fault for pledging money on the console without getting any specifics and details like that."
Indeed.
If you or anyone else takes that as insulting its misinterpreted. Mostly because I have always praised people for making any kinds of games at all away from the big 3 and helping to get the little guy recognized. But constructive criticism basically is make some unique changes in your game rather than "collect all the items and you should get a 3 star accomplishment" type game. So in saying try for more original features and use some creative elements to keep people playing I don't feel thats an insult, its mean't to be helpful. If you took it the wrong way or anyone else did then its up to you (assuming you care) to ask me to explain.
Linux would solve a lot of problems actually. For one out of the box USB support that you don't have to tweak to get like with Ouya OS. Secondly, not having to shell out big bucks for Unity for development purposes. Things like coding in perl, python, etc would be easier. Third Linux can be robust or can be minimal depending in what you want. Ouya OS doesn't have the capabilities for that. You can't choose a window manager, de, or other things like you could on Linux. Even if you could do this on Ouya Os theres more risk of bricking your console and due to the locked bootloader, not being able to come back from that.
Ok yeah I admitted I didn't get all the specifics I wanted to when I pledged money. But now when I bring up the fact the bootloader can't be unlocked I get back from devs basically that I am putting words in Boxer8/Ouya Inc's mouths and nobody ever said you couldn't wipe out Ouya OS and install a new OS. When I bring up about the AES 128 bit key the response I get is basically the same thing "Even if you can't install another OS right now because of that, nobody on The Ouya staff ever said you couldn't or that they wouldn't provide their users with a method to do so". But sometimes things don't have to be said. You imply it by locking it down. Why lock it down then if they are just going to give us a way to unlock it? That makes no sense at all.