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Confused by the Ouya Store...

RyusuiRyusui Posts: 16Member
in General Discussion
I'm rather frustrated and annoyed that none of the games in the store have up-front price tags of any sort. It's dishonest for games to lure players in with promises of free gameplay without actually telling them how much they'll be paying for the full experience: I had a nasty case of sticker shock when Pinball Arcade, which I assumed might be $10-15 at most, told me I had to pay $30 to unlock all the tables!

Is there any chance of this changing in the future? I know the whole "free game store" idea is one of Ouya's Big Ideas, but I'm wary of downloading game demos if I can't easily find out how much I'll be paying for the full version. (And if I've already made up my mind that I want a game, I'd like to be able to buy it outright!)
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  • SpoonThumbSpoonThumb Posts: 426Member
    Every game has to have a free to try part. The idea is that if you display the price in the store, it defeats the point of having that. People will judge the game on the price and screenshots, rather than what it actually plays like

    Plus not every game has a single price. If I have a free game with 100 different extra-items and power-ups, each with a different price, which price gets displayed? (You can't reasonably display all of them in the store)

    If only games with a single, unlock everything price get their price displayed in the store, that will again make it uneven. Some people won't want to even try games without a single price, while others may lump together games that are totally 100% free with games that are free, but where you really need to buy all sorts of extras

    Ultimately, if the game is not up-front with the price and/or you think the price is too much, don't buy that game.

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  • RyusuiRyusui Posts: 16Member
    I don't mind the idea of games having free-to-play content. I mind not knowing in advance what I can expect to pay if I like a game, and I also mind not simply being able to buy a game outright if I've already made up my mind about it.

    As for price tags, that's simple. Games that have a fixed, one-time purchase price get labeled with their full purchase price. Games that have unlockables get identified as "free-to-play with microtransactions." It's fully possible to label these things in a sensible fashion.

    Alternately, the store could draw an explicit difference between games that have a free demo and games that are free with in-game microtransactions. Steam does it, and it's pretty much the go-to standard for indie games.
  • zehazeha Posts: 36Member

    You could also regard the unlocking of individual pinball tables an "in-game microtransaction"... so how are you going to distinguish?

  • RyusuiRyusui Posts: 16Member
    Simple. Make two versions available: a "free" one where all the tables are bought through microtransactions, and a "paid" one which features the full package.

    Even the Google Play store tells me how much the full version of a game is without asking me to download and play it first. Having prices hidden from me makes me less likely to buy, not more.
  • SpoonThumbSpoonThumb Posts: 426Member
    It is to do with the way the OUYA IAP is set up. There are two types of product at the moment: Entitlements and Consumables. Entitlements can only be bought once, consumables, many times over.

    A game with a demo and an unlock could have multiple entitlements, such as "Buy Full Game" "Buy Full Game - Holiday Sale 20% Off!" "Buy Full Game - Special Edition" etc. Each with different prices, details etc

    Meanwhile a free to play game could have multiple entitlements as well, such as "Unlock Sword of Zor", "Unlock Spooky Dungeon" and so on

    So there is no easy/quick way for the OUYA store to tell what is and isn't a one-time purchase game.

    You could have developers declare it when they submit their games to the store. However, that goes back to the whole trust / being up front thing. A developer could say "You pay once to unlock the whole game, and it also has one or two special edition items just for show/aesthetics" and so label their game under "unlock", when in fact, those "special edition" items are in reality virtually impossible to win the game without
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  • DekarDekar Posts: 1Member
    The game's prices are completely up to the Developers. If the maker of this pinball game wants to have in game options of 'buy some tables' and 'buy all tables' (which I have seen already) then talk to them, not ouya. As to having some form of pricing in the store page, your best bet is if creators want to put that in their description, but I think ouya is doing the right thing having people able to download without a sign paying 'here's what to expect'.
  • RyusuiRyusui Posts: 16Member
    edited June 2013
    I think Ouya should have taken some lessons from Steam, personally. We already have systems in place for all this: it's called "downloading the demo," "buying the game if you like it," and "extending the game with DLC if available." Alternately, free-to-play games such as Team Fortress 2 generally don't indicate how much their paid features cost, and that's fine - it's clear from the start which "free" games offer a full experience with paid extras and which "free" games are demos that you must pay to unlock. The important thing is, there are no hidden price tags on the things Ouya calls "entitlements" - full games and add-ons have their prices listed on the store page.

    And I maintain that hiding the prices of full games and DLC (yes, I will continue to use these terms) hurts the system more than helps it. If I know up-front that two games are $40 and $10 respectively, that does not mean I am automatically more likely to buy the $10 game than I am the $40 game. If I play a demo for the $40 game and decide I like it, then I'll gladly pay. But if I play a demo only to be hit upside the head with a $40 price tag out of nowhere, I assume dishonesty on the part of the developers and uninstall.

    The current system is dev-friendly but not consumer-friendly, and it gives me the same trepidation about supporting the Ouya in the future that the mandatory always-on Kinect functionality (with all its privacy concerns) gives me about the Xbox One. Ouya needs to put some more standards in place than simply "all games must offer free content" - there should be a stricter delineation between "demo with paid unlock and DLC" and "F2P with 'consumables,'" and more importantly, Ouya needs to stop pretending they don't have a "store" and take some responsibility for informing their customers what they can expect to pay for games, in the event there is a fixed price.
    Post edited by Ryusui on
  • InsomniacInsomniac Posts: 9Member
    Agreed, I dont like not knowing what the price is, especially when I have to download 500mb of data just to find out. A short description as to how the game is set up with regards to monetisation and a price range would make it much more consumer friendly. eg Fremium 0.69 - 20.00, or Premium 6.99.
  • SirisDrackenSirisDracken Posts: 3Member
    I actually really like this store setup, it makes me not think about how much a game is going to cost me and instead makes me think about what kind of game I want to play.  Then after playing it and deciding I like it, I can then see how much the full game costs and determine if the fun I had is worth the price.

    You also have to realize that some games just do not screen shot well, and screen shots and descriptions do not always fully represent a game.  There are many many games on Steam/XBLA that I have decided to not even try because I looked at the screen shots, and the price tag and thought "nope that doesn't look like it is worth it".  Where as in this store layout I have tried nearly everything so far, because it is as easy as just downloading the game and trying it out, which allows me to make my own decision on what is good and not rely on someone else to decide that for me.

    To me that is way more consumer friendly that any system I have see to date, I can't think of anywhere else I can try EVERY single game before I decide if I want to buy or not.  Steam, XBLA, PSN, eShop, none of those offer this level of consumer decision making, and instead require you to base your decision off of what they decided you get to see and read, and that is not consumer friendly.

    I do agree though that it should be easier to see how much a game does cost or will cost you in the end, but I believe that is and should continue to be up to the developers to decide how to show you that information, not OUYA.
  • DreamwriterDreamwriter Posts: 768Member
    edited June 2013
    Ryusui said:
    The current system is dev-friendly but not consumer-friendly, and it gives me the same trepidation about supporting the Ouya in the future that the mandatory always-on Kinect functionality (with all its privacy concerns) gives me about the Xbox One.
    I disagree, the current system is consumer friendly first and foremost.  Every single game you download can be played for free.  Why do you care what the price is when you are playing it without paying a dime?  You only have to pay if you already know you will enjoy the game you play.  You don't get that on Steam - Steam doesn't require every game to have demos and in fact percentage-wise not many of them have demos.

    And The Pinball Arcade is a terrible example to give, because you're talking about optional DLC, not a single "full game" purchase.  That's like complaining that Train Simulator 2012 has $2000 worth of optional DLC, what's it matter what purchasing every single optional thing is? Also it seems crazy being surprized by the cost of that or expecting it to be $10 to $15 at most, for 30 accurate recreations of real pinball tables, licensed from the original pinball manufacturers and other sources.  Especially when you have expensive licenses for tables like Star Trek TNG or The Twilight Zone that have to pay for movie licenses and actor representations and the like.

    As for displaying a price before downloading, the problem is that price could change - developers can change prices at any time.  Imagine how much worse it would be if you saw the price of something was $.99, you downloaded and played the demo for a few days, then went to buy it and it was $5.99!  You didn't know it was on sale when you downloaded it.

    Post edited by Dreamwriter on
  • RyusuiRyusui Posts: 16Member
    Dreamwriter said:

    As for displaying a price before downloading, the problem is that price could change - developers can change prices at any time.  Imagine how much worse it would be if you saw the price of something was $.99, you downloaded and played the demo for a few days, then went to buy it and it was $5.99!  You didn't know it was on sale when you downloaded it.

    Another thing that Steam does. If the game's on sale, the store page not only tells you it's on sale, it tells you what the normal price is, how much you'll save on the regular price, and how long the sale lasts. There's nothing wrong with the system I'm suggesting; it's been done before, it's been done well, and Ouya would do well to adopt it.

    I will give Ouya's store credit for how every game effectively has a demo, so my "try before I buy" options are more varied. But it could stand to adopt a more Steam-like setup where "demo/full game," "free-to-play with paid extras" and "DLC" are clearly delineated - then there'd be no excuse for not having prices available upfront.

    ...it'd also help if I could set up Paypal or other non-card payment options.
  • DreamwriterDreamwriter Posts: 768Member
    Ryusui said:
    ...it'd also help if I could set up Paypal or other non-card payment options.
    There is a non-card-payment option (well, non-credit card).  The retail launch includes retail cash cards - buy a $25 OUYA cash card at Best Buy or wherever, enter the code into your OUYA, no credit card needed.
  • Killa_MaakiKilla_Maaki Posts: 504Member
    The problem, as others have stated, lies in how OUYA's IAP works. It's easy to say, "well but if the game is just a fixed price unlock-all kind of game the price should be displayed!"

    But think about it. How do you determine that price?

    It's easy if there's one item. It's the price of that one item.

    But what if there's more than one? What if a game has a "full-version-unlock" item, and maybe other items for DLCs or map packs? How does a computer determine which of those is the full version unlock item when there's no system in place for specifying it? Or indeed, even if there was it could be easy for a developer to forget (or, possibly, "forget") to mark a full version and the price not to be displayed.
    You didn't remember the plot of the Doctor Who movie because there was none; Just a bunch of plot holes strung together.
  • RyusuiRyusui Posts: 16Member
    edited June 2013
    Then Ouya's IAP has some serious problems if it simply can't support these basic consumer-friendly features that Steam already offers.
    Post edited by Ryusui on
  • Killa_MaakiKilla_Maaki Posts: 504Member
    Ryusui said:
    Then Ouya's IAP has some serious problems if it simply can't support these basic consumer-friendly features that Steam already offers.
    How could they have done it differently? There's a pretty big difference between Steam and OUYA. A paid game on Steam is actually different from an F2P game (you pay to download the game). Whereas on OUYA, technically there's no difference - they both use the same APIs for purchasing.
    Additionally, on OUYA anybody and their grandma can upload a game. But on Steam that isn't the case. So while Steam can reasonably trust people to mark whether their game is paid, or free to play, or whatever. OUYA can't really trust anybody and everybody to do that, especially now that so many games have been uploaded.
    You didn't remember the plot of the Doctor Who movie because there was none; Just a bunch of plot holes strung together.
  • BaconationBaconation Posts: 18Member
    Ouya's way of doing things IS different than what we're used to, and some people are never going to like that. I'd like to stick my neck out and say that I fully support what Ouya is trying to accomplish—they're forcing us to judge the value of games based on our experience playing them, rather than a with a cursory glance at a price tag and screenshots.

    On any other system, that could be annoying, but the Ouya is designed to allow you to download and try a dozen games in an hour. Because of that, it works.

    I'm all for never showing prices on the storefront. I understand the philosophical reasons for designing things that way, and I approve. Anybody who thinks it's dishonest is exaggerating—we lose nothing by trying games for free before seeing the price tag. 
    Developer of FAST FAST LASER LASER.
  • Killa_MaakiKilla_Maaki Posts: 504Member

    Baconation said:
    Ouya's way of doing things IS different than what we're used to, and some people are never going to like that. I'd like to stick my neck out and say that I fully support what Ouya is trying to accomplish—they're forcing us to judge the value of games based on our experience playing them, rather than a with a cursory glance at a price tag and screenshots.

    On any other system, that could be annoying, but the Ouya is designed to allow you to download and try a dozen games in an hour. Because of that, it works.

    I'm all for never showing prices on the storefront. I understand the philosophical reasons for designing things that way, and I approve. Anybody who thinks it's dishonest is exaggerating—we lose nothing by trying games for free before seeing the price tag. 
    I totally agree with this.

    That said, I do think it would be a good idea for this price to be prominently displayed in game. For example, instead of having a "Purchase" button on the main menu, have a button that says "Purchase - $4.99". As soon as you boot up the game you'll see it (long before you actually decide to buy), rather than being slapped across the face with a pricetag only after you've hit the Buy button.
    You didn't remember the plot of the Doctor Who movie because there was none; Just a bunch of plot holes strung together.
  • DreamwriterDreamwriter Posts: 768Member
    edited June 2013
    Killa_Maaki said:
    That said, I do think it would be a good idea for this price to be prominently displayed in game. For example, instead of having a "Purchase" button on the main menu, have a button that says "Purchase - $4.99". As soon as you boot up the game you'll see it (long before you actually decide to buy), rather than being slapped across the face with a pricetag only after you've hit the Buy button.
      That would require an internet connection to get the price from the server so you can display it (since the price can change at any time, not just on game updates), so it wouldn't be a good idea to have that on your main menu unless the button just says "Purchase" until it has read the price off of the server and then updates the button with the price.  I do agree that you should definitely not just rely on the OUYA system telling the price, a game should tell you its price on its own screen before going to the purchase confirmation, but that's kind-of a different issue.
    Post edited by Dreamwriter on
  • OrikuOriku Posts: 263Member
    I agree with how Ouya is currently doing it.  IAP's cannot be pigeonholed into normal pricing models.

    Also, with the current implementation it's not about how much money you have or are willing to spend but rather about having fun and trying new games.
  • MagnesusMagnesus Posts: 304Member
    A list of the most popular IAPs visible somewhere on the game page could be useful (to check what people are buying). Or just a simple list.

  • DreamwriterDreamwriter Posts: 768Member
    edited June 2013
    Magnesus said:
    A list of the most popular IAPs visible somewhere on the game page could be useful (to check what people are buying). Or just a simple list.

    The problem is, IAP products are not implemented for specific games - a developer's IAP product list could have 6 products in it, and each of their games could request any of those products. You could even have a product being used by multiple games if you wanted, or a game that requested different products based on what happens during gameplay.
    Post edited by Dreamwriter on
  • RyusuiRyusui Posts: 16Member
    Ouya's conceit is that it does not have a "store" - the games have their own stores. Yet I'm fairly certain Ouya takes a cut of whatever games released on their platform make, so what this effectively means is that devs and consumers are being screwed - gamers don't know how much they're going to (or even might) pay until they wait for the game to download, developers have to implement whatever store system their games have on their own, and Ouya rakes in the profits without any real effort on their part. From my perspective, it's an excuse for the Ouya people to be lazy and pawn off responsibility to their devs.

    As far as I'm concerned, the "Discover" system is a problem with the Ouya, and it threatens the platform's long-term viability far more than even the controller's lack of Start and Select buttons (which, if you'll consider the platform's touted emulation and OnLive capabilities, is a rather baffling omission - seriously, it's been a year and no one at Ouya thought the concerns about the lack of these buttons was worth revising the controller over?)
  • StarDust4EverStarDust4Ever Posts: 4Member
    Another thing i would like to add is that there needs to be better security when making purchases. I for one, would welcome an addition to require something as basic as an account password when making purchases. Currently, purchasing a game is as easy as selecting an item and hitting the (O) button three times (and often the item is preselected and you have to manually move the cursor or highlight a different selection to cancel). It is currently to easy to have your credit card accidentally charged by over-zealous button mashing. I don't have any kids, but I would warn those with children to be weary of letting them play games on the Ouya until some type of security feature is implemented to prevent unauthorized credit card access. The last thing Ouya or any developers need is to be hit with a bunch or charge-backs from the credit card company.
  • Killa_MaakiKilla_Maaki Posts: 504Member
    StarDust4Ever said:
    Another thing i would like to add is that there needs to be better security when making purchases. I for one, would welcome an addition to require something as basic as an account password when making purchases. Currently, purchasing a game is as easy as selecting an item and hitting the (O) button three times (and often the item is preselected and you have to manually move the cursor or highlight a different selection to cancel). It is currently to easy to have your credit card accidentally charged by over-zealous button mashing. I don't have any kids, but I would warn those with children to be weary of letting them play games on the Ouya until some type of security feature is implemented to prevent unauthorized credit card access. The last thing Ouya or any developers need is to be hit with a bunch or charge-backs from the credit card company.
    They just added a PIN system so you can set a PIN you have to enter for each purchase.
    You didn't remember the plot of the Doctor Who movie because there was none; Just a bunch of plot holes strung together.
  • dra6onfiredra6onfire Posts: 91Member
    Im actually pretty certain you can already set a pin code if you go to the accounts menu. I believe that was a feature provided to address exactly what you are talking about.
  • Killa_MaakiKilla_Maaki Posts: 504Member
    Ryusui said:
    ... gamers don't know how much they're going to (or even might) pay until they wait for the game to download, developers have to implement whatever store system their games have on their own, and Ouya rakes in the profits without any real effort on their part. From my perspective, it's an excuse for the Ouya people to be lazy and pawn off responsibility to their devs.
    Um.... you think it didn't require effort? Payment systems require HUGE amounts of effort. You have to make them as absolutely bulletproof as humanly possible, because otherwise somebody somewhere will have something go wrong and could sue you. So it's a huge mistake to think that OUYA's IAP system is an attempt to get away with as little work as possible.
    You didn't remember the plot of the Doctor Who movie because there was none; Just a bunch of plot holes strung together.
  • ChubbRckChubbRck Posts: 11Member
    edited June 2013
    Man, Ryusui is grouchy! I, for one, hate Steam and am glad OUYA is trying something different.
    Post edited by ChubbRck on
  • nexus66nexus66 Posts: 2Member
    Hi,

    I can't seem to locate the onlive app on my system. Am I missing something?

    Any assistance would be greatly appreciated!  Thanks!!
  • Killa_MaakiKilla_Maaki Posts: 504Member
    nexus66 said:
    Hi,

    I can't seem to locate the onlive app on my system. Am I missing something?

    Any assistance would be greatly appreciated!  Thanks!!
    Did you sideload the app? I don't think it's in the store yet, so I'm assuming so...
    I think you can find sideloaded stuff in the Make folder from the main menu.
    You didn't remember the plot of the Doctor Who movie because there was none; Just a bunch of plot holes strung together.
  • nexus66nexus66 Posts: 2Member
    Please forgive me, but i cannot locate the sideload portion.  Maybe a screen cap would help.
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