I'm starting to hear grumbles from gamers about possible Ouya games that must be online even for offline play. Is this true? This just doesn't make sense for a indie centric platform.
It's up to the developer. Games can query the OUYA servers for a list of user purchases (which obviously requires internet). Beyond that, it's entirely the responsibility of the developer whether or not they want to always require internet, or if they want to cache the list of purchases for when the user is offline.
You didn't remember the plot of the Doctor Who movie because there was none; Just a bunch of plot holes strung together.
That's what I figured. I know there is sometimes a disconnect between game developers and game enthusiasts but this is something to avoid unless absolutely necessary. We don't need comparisons to Xbone (or the Sonys voluntary DRM)
Wasn't going to name names but yeah, that's the only confirmed one I know about. It's good that Ouya can accommodate what makes big developers feel secure without dictating it to others.
Perhaps when they see how the other kids play they'll join in :)
It's true. A naive way to check if someone has bought the game is query the Ouya servers to "check receipts" for your game. No connection means receipts can't be verified.
A clever developer would anticipate this, and store some little cookie on the local filesystem that indicates that the game has been purchased. So if there's no connection, you can still check if the game has been bought.
What that means, though, is that a clever hacker could pirate the game. Recreate this local file, turn off wi-fi, and you're off and running.
In the end, it just depends on how the developer of the app coded it. It's not an Ouya-level thing.
From one perspective it sounds like the Ouya Team made it easy to implement the online dependent stuff Sony and M$ are getting in trouble for.
As a newbie Ouya developer I wouldn't know the first thing about manually coding a check once and securely validate offline system.
I really, REALLY hope they provide a offline validation system as easy to implement as the online one. A big part of Ouyas success will be differentiating itself from its "big brother" competitors.
Come on, it's the basics of programming. You cache the value with a hash - and use device ID as a salt (there are several methods of obtaining device ID, will have to check which works on OUYA best). I personally prefer to do it myself - OUYA method could've been hacked while no one will bother to hack my own method, haha.
Yeah, FF3 wouldnt even launch the demo without internet when I last tried it.I was frustrated today when I paid for "You dont know Jack" and took my ouya to work so we could play on our lunch break, but when we went to play, it reverted back to the demo since there was no internet. I think if developers are going to pull this crap they need to state the internet requirement in the info screen. And I hope that it doesnt become a trend. That is the reason soooooo many people dropped pre-orders for the Xbox One (before they denounced their drm scheme) One of the big reasons I love ouya is because it feels portable, and most of the places I take it doesnt have internet
Yeah, FF3 wouldnt even launch the demo without internet when I last tried it.I was frustrated today when I paid for "You dont know Jack" and took my ouya to work so we could play on our lunch break, but when we went to play, it reverted back to the demo since there was no internet. I think if developers are going to pull this crap they need to state the internet requirement in the info screen. And I hope that it doesnt become a trend. That is the reason soooooo many people dropped pre-orders for the Xbox One (before they denounced their drm scheme) One of the big reasons I love ouya is because it feels portable, and most of the places I take it doesnt have internet
Hate to go off on a rant but... The majority of people just dont understand the difference between a basic yes or no check and crazy DRM policies. The issue you described above is not crap. While it may be inconvenient... it definatly IS NOT anything like xbox one's satanic DRM policies.
Take a look at the console you bought.... ITS AN ONLINE CONSOLE WITH AN ONLINE STORE. its DESIGNED to use the internet. It doesnt take cartridges, or CDs....which had their own ways of detering piracy (hardware for cartridges and encryption for CDs, or a combo...)
Its a simple yes or no check more than likely on the game you mentioned and not checking in every minute. I hate to say it but you will see ALOT more of this more than likely. Developers have to protect their paycheck.
As a developer and a gamer i fully support what they did.
Describing it as a simple yes/no check is shortsighted: it is DRM.
What if 5 yrs from now, OUYA, for whatever reason, shuts down IAP server?
Customers will not be able to play. As a dev I deliberately chose to cache purchase state.
I think all OUYA game devs should do so. Heck, it is common practice on iOS even.
Come on, it's the basics of programming. You cache the value with a hash - and use device ID as a salt (there are several methods of obtaining device ID, will have to check which works on OUYA best). I personally prefer to do it myself - OUYA method could've been hacked while no one will bother to hack my own method, haha.
If you can't explain it in actual steps or at least links to working code then it's not basic. Forced online requirements are not needed or wanted. If the community could post tutorials/examples on how to validate purchased items offline we'd be one step further. Ultimately, the Ouya Team should make it easy for everyone to validate once and be done with it.
Come on, it's the basics of programming. You cache the value with a hash - and use device ID as a salt (there are several methods of obtaining device ID, will have to check which works on OUYA best). I personally prefer to do it myself - OUYA method could've been hacked while no one will bother to hack my own method, haha.
Now this is where its at, but not everyone knows how to do this, it might be basic programming knowledge to you, but might be unknown to many others.
Links, steps, tutorial needs to be posted on how to properly do this.
Describing it as a simple yes/no check is shortsighted: it is DRM.
What if 5 yrs from now, OUYA, for whatever reason, shuts down IAP server?
Customers will not be able to play. As a dev I deliberately chose to cache purchase state.
I think all OUYA game devs should do so. Heck, it is common practice on iOS even.
Your making assumptions that probably wouldnt happen very soon and IF they did, any self respecting developer would cut their losses anyhow and patch the game prior to the servers going belly up. Additionally, If the game has been out long enough and through its life-cycle im sure it might get put up for freeware anyhow...
All im saying is, its inevitable that DRM will be on just about everything to varying degrees. there isnt much that can be done about it. Just be thankful that not every developer out there is the devil as microsoft is. We are gamers too..
People that make the argument of "i dont have internet" need to look at what they bought and realize that it does require an internet connection to even get games or download them....
People are complaining about not being able to Take it to a friends house to play if they didnt have internet, COULD be fixed by using your phone as a wifi hotspot.
Yes, it requires a internet connection to download from the store, no one says it doesn't. but I use to not have internet, I would have to go to a friends house, or the library to download a game, a game patch and what have you on a USB srick and take it home and run the patch or play the game. Done that a few times with my old original Xbox. Why is doing this such a big issue with people.
Why can't I use my phone as a hotspots, well maybe they don't have teathering service added to their plan (I don't), maybe these people do not have smartphones, and maybe they don't want to Jack their data usage up, or go over their data cap and get charged out the butt.
The system does not require a internet connection to use it unless you want to get something from the store, or a developer puts online DRM on a single player offline game, or it's a online only game, or the game has both offline and online gameplay, Otherwise its not a requirement. Who really wants to take their system to a friends house just to play a game because the game requires a internet connection just to launch.
Who really cares if its a game that's obtained by digital distribution, or if its a physical disk. Always online DRM is absolutely stupid and is not wanted here, nor by me.
You shouldnt need a tethering service..... if you have an android phone you should be able to do this. or even an iphone... There are apps that can get around this and if you know what your doing and you dont have internet but have a data plan on a phone i would think you would have ventured into this already by now anyway
It does depend on how the dev does the check however but im pretty sure you wouldnt send more than a few kb back and fourth once to initially check anyway...
Unfortunately your opinion or statements wont really change the what the industry will most likely move to... piracy on android devices is pretty bad... take a look at dead trigger on the android.. it was pirated soo much the developers just gave it away since they hardly made any money off of it..
While there are honest people that just want to play the game, there are just as many dis-honest people that would take advantage of this or exploit a game that has no checks, and this is clearly visible on android platforms...
The more piracy developers see of their works, the more difficult they'll make it for you to play the game without internet connectivity..
Overall i guess you could see it as a vicious circle, but it doesn't look like there is a simple FIX for this to please everyone that covers all bases on all sides.
People that make the argument of "i dont have internet" need to look at what they bought and realize that it does require an internet connection to even get games or download them....
People are complaining about not being able to Take it to a friends house to play if they didnt have internet, COULD be fixed by using your phone as a wifi hotspot.
I'm gonna disagree here. "You need the internet to get your digital purchases" is very different from "You need the internet to use your digital purchases". Imagine how useless it would be to buy MP3s online for your iPod if your iPod had to be internet-connected to listen to those MP3s. This is a bad argument.
I would also never tell my customers "just use a tether to get online". That feels like a slap in the face and a way to justify lazy programming. Tethering is not necessarily simple or quick and quite possibly not free either.
For my games I will be caching off the purchase data on the local file system. It will be encrypted using device ID, game ID, key ID, and another secret string of my choosing. That should keep it reasonably secure against pirates that will try to copy the encrypted data from device to device, game to game, or key to key... but more importantly IMHO, it also gives real customers the convenience of not needing an internet connection for an offline game.
My philosophy is that anyone determined enough WILL pirate my game. It's a battle that I will fight, but only so far. I want to make it as difficult as possible for the pirates as long as my protections DO NOT affect the experience of legitimate customers. Once their experience suffers, the fight stops.
Come on, it's the basics of programming. You cache the value with a hash - and use device ID as a salt (there are several methods of obtaining device ID, will have to check which works on OUYA best). I personally prefer to do it myself - OUYA method could've been hacked while no one will bother to hack my own method, haha.
This is good advice, but this is NOT the basics of programming. It's the basics of encryption and security programming. You can't assume every programmer knows about encryption and how it works and how to do it.
Come on, it's the basics of programming. You cache the value with a hash - and use device ID as a salt (there are several methods of obtaining device ID, will have to check which works on OUYA best). I personally prefer to do it myself - OUYA method could've been hacked while no one will bother to hack my own method, haha.
This is good advice, but this is NOT the basics of programming. It's the basics of encryption and security programming. You can't assume every programmer knows about encryption and how it works and how to do it.
This would be me. I consider myself having adequate programming knowledge but I personally know next to nothing about encryption.
You shouldnt need a tethering service..... if you have an android phone you should be able to do this. or even an iphone... There are apps that can get around this and if you know what your doing and you dont have internet but have a data plan on a phone i would think you would have ventured into this already by now anyway
It does depend on how the dev does the check however but im pretty sure you wouldnt send more than a few kb back and fourth once to initially check anyway...
Unfortunately your opinion or statements wont really change the what the industry will most likely move to... piracy on android devices is pretty bad... take a look at dead trigger on the android.. it was pirated soo much the developers just gave it away since they hardly made any money off of it..
While there are honest people that just want to play the game, there are just as many dis-honest people that would take advantage of this or exploit a game that has no checks, and this is clearly visible on android platforms...
The more piracy developers see of their works, the more difficult they'll make it for you to play the game without internet connectivity..
Overall i guess you could see it as a vicious circle, but it doesn't look like there is a simple FIX for this to please everyone that covers all bases on all sides.
Hate to burst your bubble, many cell providers have tethering as a added extra (for like $10-$15 extra a month). I did not opt for the option so tethering ildoes not work on my phone (meaning I can not use it).
I tried to use it before. the other device will connect to my phone, it just wont transfer any data to the net.
And if you are already at your cap, many providers will charge you for going over that cap.
And no matter what form of DRM you put into place, there's always someone out there that will crack it. So why do online DRM again when all it will do is punish your legitimate customers.
Yeah it would be up to the developer, for example you could just save a variable to a file if they bought it, then the only reason you would need to recheck online, it was if they deleted the game and reinstalled it. Yeah and I guess it will be easy to hack but better to try and sell to customers then worry about hakers, if you cant play a single player game because its raining and the internet is down thats abit retarded.
Yeah, FF3 wouldnt even launch the demo without internet when I last tried it.I was frustrated today when I paid for "You dont know Jack" and took my ouya to work so we could play on our lunch break, but when we went to play, it reverted back to the demo since there was no internet. I think if developers are going to pull this crap they need to state the internet requirement in the info screen. And I hope that it doesnt become a trend. That is the reason soooooo many people dropped pre-orders for the Xbox One (before they denounced their drm scheme) One of the big reasons I love ouya is because it feels portable, and most of the places I take it doesnt have internet
I also reverted back to the demo level of "You Don't Know Jack" today, but it was because Ouya's servers were so overloaded they weren't responding - yet another peril of online-required games.
I agree with you 100% that games requiring an always-available internet connection should have that stated on the information page.
Yeah it would be up to the developer, for example you could just save a variable to a file if they bought it, then the only reason you would need to recheck online, it was if they deleted the game and reinstalled it. Yeah and I guess it will be easy to hack but better to try and sell to customers then worry about hakers, if you cant play a single player game because its raining and the internet is down thats abit retarded.
You among others are missing the point... its just that. once its leaked sales drop so bad and no one buys it anymore. Classic case... Deadtrigger...
So basically because its slight inconvenience to you, i should risk everything ive worked on and make it easy to hack just to appease a small hand full of players because they dont want to use their internet connection they already used to download the game AND purchase it.
Its quite rediculous though that developers catch hellfire for wanting to protect their works...
Pretty absurd that it's come to that these days...
I think the statement "forced online checks are inevitable" is a self fulfilling statement. With Ouya it's about what WE do.
As a gamer online requirements for offline gaming is not a feature. As a developer I wouldn't impose that on the people who play my game.
Yes its about what the community does here but at the same time not everyone thinks they way you want them too and they have their own opinions.
Take a look around you, Itunes, xbox 360 movies/games, ps3 downloadable games and content. its already here to varying degrees and your just failing to acknowledge it.. Im not saying everyone on OUYA is going to have to follow DRM at all.. it is up to the developer and i think that is the way it should be..
if im losing my ass to piracy, i should have the right to block thieves. If it affects a small percentage of people 1-5% as being inconvenient, so be it.. atleast im not losing 40-50-60+ percent of my sales to piracy...
Lets face it. square enix doesnt just work for free and neither does any other game developer that makes halfway decent titles people want to play. They do it to make money to support themselves, their business and continue to grow so they can make better titles and continue to do what they love.
It's probably a stupid decision, but Saturday Morning RPG has no DRM. Once you've purchased the game, it is yours forever - offline or online. Sure it will be easy for pirates to hack - if they want to play the game bad enough to hack it, I'm flattered. I'm a firm believer in being able to own what you pay for, I don't want to make things difficult for our paying customers.
I think the statement "forced online checks are inevitable" is a self fulfilling statement. With Ouya it's about what WE do.
As a gamer online requirements for offline gaming is not a feature. As a developer I wouldn't impose that on the people who play my game.
Yes its about what the community does here but at the same time not everyone thinks they way you want them too and they have their own opinions.
Take a look around you, Itunes, xbox 360 movies/games, ps3 downloadable games and content. its already here to varying degrees and your just failing to acknowledge it.. Im not saying everyone on OUYA is going to have to follow DRM at all.. it is up to the developer and i think that is the way it should be..
if im losing my ass to piracy, i should have the right to block thieves. If it affects a small percentage of people 1-5% as being inconvenient, so be it.. atleast im not losing 40-50-60+ percent of my sales to piracy...
Lets face it. square enix doesnt just work for free and neither does any other game developer that makes halfway decent titles people want to play. They do it to make money to support themselves, their business and continue to grow so they can make better titles and continue to do what they love.
You're not really losing sales to piracy when 99% of pirates wouldn't buy your game in the first place. I think the problems DRM can cause your customers should far outweigh the few extra dollars you might stand to make.
You're not really losing sales to piracy when 99% of pirates wouldn't buy your game in the first place. I think the problems DRM can cause your customers should far outweigh the few extra dollars you might stand to make.
Agreed. I cant remember any great indie game that didnt generate profit because of piracy.
Take minecraft for example. I'd say the piracy made the game twice as much profit in the long term (by word of mouth)
Always think about your players first, then handle piracy second.
Post edited by Evgiz on
I made the OUYA exclusive games Cube and Creature and Hellworm! evgiz.net
TheLoon
Posts: 21Member
Comments
Perhaps when they see how the other kids play they'll join in :)
As a newbie Ouya developer I wouldn't know the first thing about manually coding a check once and securely validate offline system.
I really, REALLY hope they provide a offline validation system as easy to implement as the online one. A big part of Ouyas success will be differentiating itself from its "big brother" competitors.
Hate to go off on a rant but... The majority of people just dont understand the difference between a basic yes or no check and crazy DRM policies. The issue you described above is not crap. While it may be inconvenient... it definatly IS NOT anything like xbox one's satanic DRM policies.
Take a look at the console you bought.... ITS AN ONLINE CONSOLE WITH AN ONLINE STORE. its DESIGNED to use the internet. It doesnt take cartridges, or CDs....which had their own ways of detering piracy (hardware for cartridges and encryption for CDs, or a combo...)
Its a simple yes or no check more than likely on the game you mentioned and not checking in every minute. I hate to say it but you will see ALOT more of this more than likely. Developers have to protect their paycheck.
As a developer and a gamer i fully support what they did.
I made the OUYA exclusive games Cube and Creature and Hellworm!
evgiz.net
Links, steps, tutorial needs to be posted on how to properly do this.
Your making assumptions that probably wouldnt happen very soon and IF they did, any self respecting developer would cut their losses anyhow and patch the game prior to the servers going belly up. Additionally, If the game has been out long enough and through its life-cycle im sure it might get put up for freeware anyhow...
All im saying is, its inevitable that DRM will be on just about everything to varying degrees. there isnt much that can be done about it. Just be thankful that not every developer out there is the devil as microsoft is. We are gamers too..
People that make the argument of "i dont have internet" need to look at what they bought and realize that it does require an internet connection to even get games or download them....
People are complaining about not being able to Take it to a friends house to play if they didnt have internet, COULD be fixed by using your phone as a wifi hotspot.
Why can't I use my phone as a hotspots, well maybe they don't have teathering service added to their plan (I don't), maybe these people do not have smartphones, and maybe they don't want to Jack their data usage up, or go over their data cap and get charged out the butt.
The system does not require a internet connection to use it unless you want to get something from the store, or a developer puts online DRM on a single player offline game, or it's a online only game, or the game has both offline and online gameplay, Otherwise its not a requirement. Who really wants to take their system to a friends house just to play a game because the game requires a internet connection just to launch.
Who really cares if its a game that's obtained by digital distribution, or if its a physical disk. Always online DRM is absolutely stupid and is not wanted here, nor by me.
It does depend on how the dev does the check however but im pretty sure you wouldnt send more than a few kb back and fourth once to initially check anyway...
Unfortunately your opinion or statements wont really change the what the industry will most likely move to... piracy on android devices is pretty bad... take a look at dead trigger on the android.. it was pirated soo much the developers just gave it away since they hardly made any money off of it..
While there are honest people that just want to play the game, there are just as many dis-honest people that would take advantage of this or exploit a game that has no checks, and this is clearly visible on android platforms...
The more piracy developers see of their works, the more difficult they'll make it for you to play the game without internet connectivity..
Overall i guess you could see it as a vicious circle, but it doesn't look like there is a simple FIX for this to please everyone that covers all bases on all sides.
As a gamer online requirements for offline gaming is not a feature. As a developer I wouldn't impose that on the people who play my game.
I would also never tell my customers "just use a tether to get online". That feels like a slap in the face and a way to justify lazy programming. Tethering is not necessarily simple or quick and quite possibly not free either.
For my games I will be caching off the purchase data on the local file system. It will be encrypted using device ID, game ID, key ID, and another secret string of my choosing. That should keep it reasonably secure against pirates that will try to copy the encrypted data from device to device, game to game, or key to key... but more importantly IMHO, it also gives real customers the convenience of not needing an internet connection for an offline game.
My philosophy is that anyone determined enough WILL pirate my game. It's a battle that I will fight, but only so far. I want to make it as difficult as possible for the pirates as long as my protections DO NOT affect the experience of legitimate customers. Once their experience suffers, the fight stops.
Take some time and learn Designer-Friendly Programming 101.
Take some time and learn Designer-Friendly Programming 101.
I tried to use it before. the other device will connect to my phone, it just wont transfer any data to the net.
And if you are already at your cap, many providers will charge you for going over that cap.
And no matter what form of DRM you put into place, there's always someone out there that will crack it. So why do online DRM again when all it will do is punish your legitimate customers.
So basically because its slight inconvenience to you, i should risk everything ive worked on and make it easy to hack just to appease a small hand full of players because they dont want to use their internet connection they already used to download the game AND purchase it.
Its quite rediculous though that developers catch hellfire for wanting to protect their works...
Pretty absurd that it's come to that these days...
Yes its about what the community does here but at the same time not everyone thinks they way you want them too and they have their own opinions.
Take a look around you, Itunes, xbox 360 movies/games, ps3 downloadable games and content. its already here to varying degrees and your just failing to acknowledge it.. Im not saying everyone on OUYA is going to have to follow DRM at all.. it is up to the developer and i think that is the way it should be..
if im losing my ass to piracy, i should have the right to block thieves. If it affects a small percentage of people 1-5% as being inconvenient, so be it.. atleast im not losing 40-50-60+ percent of my sales to piracy...
Lets face it. square enix doesnt just work for free and neither does any other game developer that makes halfway decent titles people want to play. They do it to make money to support themselves, their business and continue to grow so they can make better titles and continue to do what they love.
You're not really losing sales to piracy when 99% of pirates wouldn't buy your game in the first place. I think the problems DRM can cause your customers should far outweigh the few extra dollars you might stand to make.
I made the OUYA exclusive games Cube and Creature and Hellworm!
evgiz.net
Also many went here https://support.ouya.tv/anonymous_requests/new