While that would be great for mass appeal games, the problem with that is that it ignores any sub-culture which is less than a certain probability. For example, if your game is really only interesting to 1 out of 500 people then you have maybe a 50% chance of getting out of the sandbox (or less). I don't think that would scale as well as it sounds.
Having worked retail management in a past life, I can honestly say that if your product is interesting to only 1 out of 500 people, it probably wouldn't be in the store for very long. And if it's carried despite that lack of demand, it's not going to be displayed prominently.
App stores have the luxury of a lot more room for inventory than a retail establishment, but they still suffer the same challenges around promotional and featured items. Niche products are simply going to have to do what other physical niche products have to do to be sustainable: Find their audience rather than relying on their audience to find them.
Having worked retail management in a past life, I can honestly say that if your product is interesting to only 1 out of 500 people, it probably wouldn't be in the store for very long. And if it's carried despite that lack of demand, it's not going to be displayed prominently.
In Google Play a game interesting to 1 out of 500 people would get you tens of millions of downloads and be a great success. It all depends on the scale of the store. OUYA for now is small, but might get much, much bigger.
Having worked retail management in a past life, I can honestly say that if your product is interesting to only 1 out of 500 people, it probably wouldn't be in the store for very long. And if it's carried despite that lack of demand, it's not going to be displayed prominently.
In Google Play a game interesting to 1 out of 500 people would get you tens of millions of downloads and be a great success. It all depends on the scale of the store. OUYA for now is small, but might get much, much bigger.
Again, this still scales to a physical retail analogy. An app store's reach is akin to several locations of Walmart or Target and demand for certain products will still vary by demographic and possibly territory. 10M downloads out of billions of potential customers is still going to be less featured than a product that will produce 500M downloads out of that same group. From a purely financial standpoint, there's little incentive for an app store to feature anything but items that will guarantee maximum profit (the same as several retail stores grouped together to form the equivalent reach to potential customers). Not saying it's a non-flawed reality, but app stores have the same limits of advertising space as retail. It's why targeted/tailored advertisement is such a critical buzz word these days.
OUYA could be capable of doing localized feature and promotion at some point if they wanted to accommodate some of that. Depending upon the depth of metrics they have of game usage, they could group like-minded people together (who have play lists that have a high degree of intersection in terms of play usage) and recommend frequently played titles out of those lists to people who haven't played them in that group.
And they could follow the retail analogy by selling "endcaps" at some point. They get a bigger than 30% cut and upfront payment, for instance, to feature a product. I realize this starts to become anti-democratic after a point. But laws of supply and demand are also relevant to limited promotion space.
Just chiming in to say my game, Square Off made it out of the Sandbox. Last I checked it had "You +4" thumbs up, then when I checked and found it in the Genres, it had "You +6". So currently it's a pretty low barrier.
As a $700 backer, the Sandbox did feel like a slap in the face. It does however force you to promote your game in forums and social media, which in the end is a good thing for you and the OUYA platform.
Looking forward to hearing more from OUYA about their plans for the Sandbox. I like the idea of pulling random titles into the main Genres, but I also think more ways of sorting and slicing the Sandbox titles would help: Random, Newest/Oldest, Highest/Lowest score, Genres, Favourite Genres, Digg style newest + score metric, etc. Having an "Advanced Search" that combines these features and lets you save your searches would be very cool.
Try your game on google play without some one linking or reviewing it, it will simply not get downloaded at all even if its free. The consumers are only going to care about the featured (IE the ones in the categories) and probably no one will look in the graveyard that is the sandbox so unless you can bring in the traffic from somewhere its DOA. Thats pretty much the same with any platform though.
They should at least give games in the sandbox a category otherwise it will be a graveyard no one will even try to look at, unless you can drum up the traffic yourself. It probably got kicked out of the categories because it wasnt selling enough units.
On Google Play you get 30 days on top new free list - and getting there is quite easy. If your game is good being on top new free can get you tens of thousands downloads a day. But Google Play algorithms are probably very complicated and change constantly.
Having worked retail management in a past life, I can honestly say that if your product is interesting to only 1 out of 500 people, it probably wouldn't be in the store for very long. And if it's carried despite that lack of demand, it's not going to be displayed prominently.
In Google Play a game interesting to 1 out of 500 people would get you tens of millions of downloads and be a great success. It all depends on the scale of the store. OUYA for now is small, but might get much, much bigger.
Yes but a 1/500 game is going to be something just below Angry Birds level - something like Jetpack Joyride, meaning a very popular game.
What people aren't getting here I think is that the store will scale to itself...if the most popular sandbox game only has 1000 installs, being in the top 10% would probably mean 500-1000. It isn't a measure of popularity on other platforms (Although a game popular on other platforms would do better on Ouya than an unknown.)
If you make a good game it will most likely rise to the top as long as you send out marketing emails, just like with any other platform (Although I am guessing getting reviews on an Ouya specific site will be easier than the likes of TouchArcade for iOS...just given the platforms current scale. An Ouya game is one out of hundreds at the moment, Play/iOS is one out of tens of thousands of available games.)
IMO what they should do is this: In each category have subcategories - "New", "Popular", "Featured" and "All". "New" will essentially be the sandbox. If users just glance over a game too many times than it should slowly be pushed out into "all", still findable by searching, but not prominently displayed. This takes care of a major issue, which is that the sandbox is a melting pot of genres, so actually finding something you like could be difficult. So in this case you would just have developers suggest a category for their game, and the reviewers can either approve it or fix the category selection if necessary.
For those of you against the idea...what do you want Ouya to do? The system is not there just to promote your game as it can't work like that when there are hundreds of games on the store. The early days of the iOS App Store are gone, there are just too many developers for everyone to release any game and grab a few K. The best Ouya can do is to make it as much of a meritocracy as possible, and I think out of all the platforms they have the best shot of doing that, as good games on iOS and Android still get missed by Apple/Google features as they only have a handful per week when thousands of apps are being added per day.
Perhaps one of the rows in each genre could be the sandbox?
Like so:
Adventure games
Popular [ ][ ][ ][ ][ ]
Sandbox [ ][ ][ ][ ][ ]
huh. I was thinking the same thing when coming back into this thread :) I like this running theme that the sandbox be removed and instead space is dedicated to New and Lower downloaded games.
The App store will put everything in categories so you can at least find it, then it just features game in the categories, most people only look at featured but at least you can look at different games using categories.
So after giving it a bit more thought, what if the sandbox were separated into new/old style categories.
Say, we have one "tab" for popular Sandbox games, followed by "This Week/Last Week, Month, so on.
After something hits a certain threshold it could be cycled out, at which point the developer would be informed, and have a chance to resubmit after a short period, or after they've made an update.
This gives a comfortable method of browsing, as well offering a way to get the name back toward the top of the list if perhaps it just ended up getting drown out by other games.
You'd need marketing for people to get your game anyways - I mean think, the system launched with over 100 games, and having tried a bunch of them, some of them are pretty bad cell-phone ports. And this is just launch, imagine how the system will be in a year, with potentially thousands of bad games on there. Even without the sandbox system you'd need marketing to get people to see your game, this way at least the end-users have a place they can go to for games that are probably somewhat decent. It's definitely a great thing for end-users, and will make the OUYA more successful than if it wasn't there, which is good for us developers - more potential customers is a good thing.
This is the biggest problem with the system being based on Android. Instead of people taking the platform seriously, and optimizing accordingly, they just want to push shitty ports of games at us. Hopefully in the future we have less of this, and more of actual console quality games!
I'm not really sure what the problem is with the Sandbox or why some people here are saying it's hopeless to get out of it. For the mean time it's certainly not perfect but nor is most of the Ouya software. Not to mention I've noticed the number of games in the sandbox start to dwindle over the past week or so as games start getting pushed up into the regular store categories.
The sandbox makes decent enough sense. Let the player curate the store to filter the crap from the gold. The idea that only the mainstream or "publicly agreeable" games will get out is nonsense. It doesn't require 10,000 votes to get out of the Sandbox. I don't know exactly how many it takes right now but it seems more than reasonable consider a good portion have made it already with the limited Ouya audience we have in this preview period.
I'd recommend users themselves advertising the console itself and new better and more money and other things will happen just trust me. Advertise in small ways like facebook, forums, etc... just do whatever it takes.
Seems like a lot of devs here are pretty annoyed about the sandbox concept. I have to admit, I was too at first (and/or I still am). I had some serious TLDR going on while reading through all these comments, so forgive me if I've missed something...
It seems to me there are competing concerns. On the one hand, you have OUYA who wants to make a very good impression on the end user. Sure, they want and need to make the developer happy, but without the paying end user, no one will be happy.
To make the end user happy, they need to shield them from the piles of crap that pop up -- hence the sandbox. Only the few that rise to the top will get any prime attention, the rest will drown in their own filth. If they didn't do this, the average end user would have to sift through the crap on their own and would get a very poor impression. So it's a given that the first options an end user sees should be high quality games that are likely to make a good impression -- if this isn't the case, everyone will lose.
But this really sucks for indie devs that don't have the resources to push their game. Being stuck in the sandbox is a catch 22. You won't get out of the sandbox if you're not popular, and you won't be popular if you're in the sandbox. The only path out of the sandbox is a painfully slow one: some small trickle of users must find their way to your game by swimming through the sea of crap that is the sandbox and like the game. Eventually, as more users do this, your game will be easier to see and, if it's truly good, its chances of success will grow exponentially at this point.
While that is a foolproof way to keep all the terrible games away from the end user, it's really bad for the developer without deep pockets. And that's not ok -- the whole point of the OUYA was to make the living room console experience accessible to exactly those developers. At least, that was my impression when I happily signed my money away. But by forcing them to wallow in the sandbox, you are alienating them.
So there needs to be more to this. There needs to be a quick path out of the confines of the sandbox for those games that have potential. Otherwise, you're going to attract the two groups you don't want: those with proven games (ports and the like) and/or deep pockets, and those who don't care at all (the ones submitting their half-baked college projects).
Some ideas come to mind, but I'm not sure they're worth mentioning. And it looks like the "Staff Picks" is a stab in this direction. But ultimately with the sandbox approach you need end users to do the majority of the dirty work for you. If end users aren't eagerly trying new games, you might as well call the sandbox "The Graveyard." To this end, I think the most fruitful thing you can do is to encourage (or even outright reward) your end users for trying or reviewing games.
This sandbox stuff is news to me... Is there a link describing how it currently works? It sounds pretty crappy to be honest. And I'm almost done porting my game, too.. :(
It just seems to me that if the sandbox is where all the crappy/shovelware games go in the long run, that category will have a stigma attached to it. If that's what the average customer thinks of it as, they won't even bother digging around in it.
Additionally, if you happen to release an awesome game at a bad time, you could get pushed back in the sandbox very quickly, and could remain there because nobody will dig far into it..
It just seems to me that if the sandbox is where all the crappy/shovelware games go in the long run, that category will have a stigma attached to it. If that's what the average customer thinks of it as, they won't even bother digging around in it.
Additionally, if you happen to release an awesome game at a bad time, you could get pushed back in the sandbox very quickly, and could remain there because nobody will dig far into it..
I think you hit the nail on the head. The whole idea is to protect the average customers experience. There will be developers and gamers looking for diamonds in the rough in the sandbox. At first I just pictured it as an impossible place to browse after 100s then 1000s of apps are added.
But, even if it is impossible to easily sift through 1000s of apps you can always use social media, facebook, twitter, friends, and family to check your game out. They can type in the name of your app, check it out and give you an upvote. Devs are complaining about costs of marketing but last time I checked social media was free.
Is the system perfect/flawless? No. But does it condemn quality devs with small pockets to a graveyard of apps? No.
They can type in the name of your app, check it out and give you an upvote. Devs are complaining about costs of marketing but last time I checked social media was free.
Everyone can do that, though. So the effective "starting point" for a game's liked-ness is pretty high.
This is actually a trend I really dislike. Everything pretty much works this way... I don't get on Facebook very often, but when I do, I usually have dozens of requests from people wanting me to "like" various things. It's somewhat sad and insulting -- my relationship with a lot of old friends has basically been degraded into being a resource they can tap in to for likes. (Sorry for the tangent there).
But, even if it is impossible to easily sift through 1000s of apps you can always use social media, facebook, twitter, friends, and family to check your game out. They can type in the name of your app, check it out and give you an upvote. Devs are complaining about costs of marketing but last time I checked social media was free.
Is the system perfect/flawless? No. But does it condemn quality devs with small pockets to a graveyard of apps? No.
Your argument about spreading the word to everyone you know about your game would be more valid if the Ouya were ubiquitous, which it is not (whereas telling friends/family about an iPhone game you make would be much more beneficial, since even if they weren't interested in the game they'd still be able to support you if they wanted). Only a handful of people in my circle of friends, family and colleagues even know what the Ouya is. Only ONE of those people is actually ordering one. So unless there's a way to upvote without actually having a console (which would be dumb), then telling everyone you know won't help much, I suspect.
I hate to point out the obvious but it is probably wise to look at some existing systems and learn from them. I think steam is a great place to look on what is expected.
Green light is a good example of what this can be looking at.
How would Green Light be better than this? This system games are dependent on actually being played a lot to get into the main lists, meaning only games people actually like will get in there (and people don't have to wait for games to reach that point to play/buy them). Green Light has little to do with how good a game is, but instead how much social networking the game's author has done (and a competitor can get a few friends to thumbs-down something in Green Light, something that couldn't happen with the Sandbox). Even Gabe Newell of Valve has said that Green Light sucks:
"Greenlight is a bad example of an election process. We came to the conclusion pretty quickly that we could just do away with Greenlight completely, because it was a bottleneck rather than a way for people to communicate choice.”
I was not referring to testing apps. I was referring to how you can navigate it. People can make there own lists of games by what ever requirement they wish and people can work through them. It also has genres and you can just hit yes and that's a positive vote and no removes it from your list getting it out of the way in future.
Also I do wish there was the ability to see videos and pictures before you download anything. Also browsing pictures easily would be nice as well. Comments might be nice to. While I know not too many people will type with a controller but still some people might take the time to give some good information.
So if green light sucks and ouya implements 1/10th of the features for the same thing. That means ouya really sucks. Only exception is built in download.
For instance someone would no doubt make a list for no phone ports. Or like green light has indie lists this would likely have triple A list instead.
I see no problem with the Sandbox. It's basically the same as the iOS and android app platforms. Adventurous gamers check the Sandbox for new stuff, and upvote them, and popular games get featured. It's still early days, the devs have already said they're improving on it, and There isn't really enough content available yet to trigger any major shift in gaming habits just because of store popularity.
I see no problem with the Sandbox. It's basically the same as the iOS and android app platforms. Adventurous gamers check the Sandbox for new stuff, and upvote them, and popular games get featured. It's still early days, the devs have already said they're improving on it, and There isn't really enough content available yet to trigger any major shift in gaming habits just because of store popularity.
How is one giant bucket for anything that hasn't garnered enough upvotes ANYthing like the iOS or Android app stores?
I am not opposed to the idea of Sandbox. What I am opposed to is the giant disorganized mess it currently is. That makes it a nightmare for users to navigate, and probably scares users away. What they should have done, instead of sorting into numbered range folders, would be to sort by genre. Then I think it wouldn't be such a hassle.
You didn't remember the plot of the Doctor Who movie because there was none; Just a bunch of plot holes strung together.
DFT: So what do *YOU* recommend then? What system is fair? I think sandbox is right, there is still FRESH section where your game will appear - do a fair game with proper launch and you get out.
Comments
We've got over 100 and 5 likes and are still in the sandbox and were shoved to the back after being at the top for a few days...
Id say the "low barrier" is weather or not OUYA decides to move it really....
What people aren't getting here I think is that the store will scale to itself...if the most popular sandbox game only has 1000 installs, being in the top 10% would probably mean 500-1000. It isn't a measure of popularity on other platforms (Although a game popular on other platforms would do better on Ouya than an unknown.)
Website
Green light is a good example of what this can be looking at.
How would Green Light be better than this? This system games are dependent on actually being played a lot to get into the main lists, meaning only games people actually like will get in there (and people don't have to wait for games to reach that point to play/buy them). Green Light has little to do with how good a game is, but instead how much social networking the game's author has done (and a competitor can get a few friends to thumbs-down something in Green Light, something that couldn't happen with the Sandbox). Even Gabe Newell of Valve has said that Green Light sucks:
"Greenlight is a bad example of an election process. We came to the conclusion pretty quickly that we could just do away with Greenlight completely, because it was a bottleneck rather than a way for people to communicate choice.”
Also I do wish there was the ability to see videos and pictures before you download anything. Also browsing pictures easily would be nice as well. Comments might be nice to. While I know not too many people will type with a controller but still some people might take the time to give some good information.
It's still early days, the devs have already said they're improving on it, and There isn't really enough content available yet to trigger any major shift in gaming habits just because of store popularity.
What they should have done, instead of sorting into numbered range folders, would be to sort by genre.
Then I think it wouldn't be such a hassle.